Nutrient deficiency or nutrient burn? Opinions?

[S0AR3R]

Hi! I made a post about this when I first saw it on my plant and ruled it out to be splashing from watering but its now spreading up the plant. It’s my first grow and I’m having trouble properly diagnosing this problem and need some help. It looks to me like it could be multiple trace minerals deficiencies, what do u guys think?

Plant 1 blue dream: week 3 veg
Plant 2 blue dream week 2/3 veg (started late)
Grow tent: 4x4x6
Grow light: HTG supply 4.0 810w LED
Temps: 77-78/ lights off: 68-70
RH: 50%
Soil ph 6.4-6.5
In a “just water” pre amended soil
Started both plants in coco in solo cups
Just transferred plants in 2 Gallon fabric pots.
I use roots organic uprising foundation and grow and roots organic dry micro “terp tea” with a small NPK ratio as well as a small dose of worm castings and bat guano i pre mixed these nutrients into the soil at a smaller dose then recommended and I very so often put them into a tea
I water with RO water with 1ppm so I add organic fox farm cal mag. i also believe it could be a magnesium or calcium deficiency that could be caused by another related trace mineral. I also use recharge teas once a week sometimes maybe twice.

First plant #1 has
Copper spots all over leaves only older ones
Newer leaves on upper nodes have light green edges
Just sprouting leaves are light green all over
Purple stems on bottom
Some tips, not all just middle nodes are burnt copper color and bent up

Second younger plant looks great IMO only the first 2 lower true leave are yellowish and spotting but she has purple stems even worse then plant #1.

 

[Bill284]

Hi! I made a post about this when I first saw it on my plant and ruled it out to be splashing from watering but its now spreading up the plant. It’s my first grow and I’m having trouble properly diagnosing this problem and need some help. It looks to me like it could be multiple trace minerals deficiencies, what do u guys think?

Plant 1 blue dream: week 3 veg
Plant 2 blue dream week 2/3 veg (started late)
Grow tent: 4x4x6
Grow light: HTG supply 4.0 810w LED
Temps: 77-78/ lights off: 68-70
RH: 50%
Soil ph 6.4-6.5
In a “just water” pre amended soil
Started both plants in coco in solo cups
Just transferred plants in 2 Gallon fabric pots.
I use roots organic uprising foundation and grow and roots organic dry micro “terp tea” with a small NPK ratio as well as a small dose of worm castings and bat guano i pre mixed these nutrients into the soil at a smaller dose then recommended and I very so often put them into a tea
I water with RO water with 1ppm so I add organic fox farm cal mag. i also believe it could be a magnesium or calcium deficiency that could be caused by another related trace mineral. I also use recharge teas once a week sometimes maybe twice.

First plant #1 has
Copper spots all over leaves only older ones
Newer leaves on upper nodes have light green edges
Just sprouting leaves are light green all over
Purple stems on bottom
Some tips, not all just middle nodes are burnt copper color and bent up

Second younger plant looks great IMO only the first 2 lower true leave are yellowish and spotting but she has purple stems even worse then plant #1.

Good morning @S0AR3R hope you are well my friend.
How often are you watering?
Do you let pots get bone dry before watering again?

Stay safe
Bill

 

[StoneOtter]

Hi S0AR3R, nice looking plant. I think Bill is onto something. Maybe underwatering a little?

 

[Emilya Green]

I would like to hear how often you water and how much you give when you do. Continue giving calmag, because the spots on your leaves look like what happens when you have a magnesium deficiency.

 

[S0AR3R]

Good morning @S0AR3R hope you are well my friend.
How often are you watering?
Do you let pots get bone dry before watering again?

Stay safe
Bill

I do not let the pot get completely dry I water about 1cup each plant I water when I see my first bottom leaves droop a little and when it pots feels a bit lighter, about every 2-3 days, maybe I should do less water and more often?
Thanks for all the help bill I see you commenting on all my post and I really appreciate all the help man!! Big thanks!

 

[S0AR3R]

I would like to hear how often you water and how much you give when you do. Continue giving calmag, because the spots on your leaves look like what happens when you have a magnesium deficiency.

I been doing a lot of cal mag foliar sprays and put in the water, and when I water it’s 1 cup of water per plant every 2-3 days, From the research and every thing ive been looking at it possibly looks like I’m getting to much potassium and/or phosphorus and it’s causing my cal mag deficiency.

 

[Emilya Green]

I been doing a lot of cal mag foliar sprays and put in the water, and when I water it’s 1 cup of water per plant every 2-3 days, From the research and every thing ive been looking at it possibly looks like I’m getting to much potassium and/or phosphorus and it’s causing my cal mag deficiency.

its probably just the RO water causing the deficiency, since everything is filtered out, its not likely to be a lockout because you're giving too much other stuff. You are also watering totally incorrectly. You are deciding for the plant how much water to give, and at what frequency. Let the plant and your soil decide these issues for you. Learn about the importance of the wet/dry cycle, and get some SNS 217c so you can nuke those mites. I invite you to read my watering thread that has saved hundreds of grows just like yours. The link on how to properly water a potted plant is below, in my signature lines.

 

[S0AR3R]

its probably just the RO water causing the deficiency, since everything is filtered out, its not likely to be a lockout because you're giving too much other stuff. You are also watering totally incorrectly. You are deciding for the plant how much water to give, and at what frequency. Let the plant and your soil decide these issues for you. Learn about the importance of the wet/dry cycle, and get some SNS 217c so you can nuke those mites. I invite you to read my watering thread that has saved hundreds of grows just like yours. The link on how to properly water a potted plant is below, in my signature

I started in coco in soil cups watering in coco was so easy then soil. I always gave it till 10% run off. I read your post and adopted your techniques but I’m still just confused on how much water and at what stage of growth, i read at somewhere first water, water your plant and when you done what for how every long until you leaves wilt just a little then next time u water, water slightly before that time they started to wilt. So I went off that and also read 1.5 cups of water for 2 gallon pots. But I’m going to reread you post hopefully get some more out of it. I’m been thinking of a building a drip system maybe thatwould help me out by for water soil needs and not the plants?

 

[Emilya Green]

I started in coco in soil cups watering in coco was so easy then soil. I always gave it till 10% run off. I read your post and adopted your techniques but I’m still just confused on how much water and at what stage of growth, i read at somewhere first water, water your plant and when you done what for how every long until you leaves wilt just a little then next time u water, water slightly before that time they started to wilt. So I went off that and also read 1.5 cups of water for 2 gallon pots. But I’m going to reread you post hopefully get some more out of it. I’m been thinking of a building a drip system maybe thatwould help me out by for water soil needs and not the plants?

how much water you give is always to runoff... but that amount changes as you get more roots that are sucking up water as you water... your watering needs will change as the plants increase in size and the amount of time that they can go between waterings will also change as the roots develop. Forget watching for the wilt, go by the weight of the container. Wait to water until that container is as light as a similar container filled with dry soil. Every soil is different and can hold different amounts of water. 1.5c for 2 gallon pots is simply a guess... always water just to runoff. Please do re-read my watering thread and please ask questions when you think you got it.

 

[S0AR3R]

how much water you give is always to runoff... but that amount changes as you get more roots that are sucking up water as you water... your watering needs will change as the plants increase in size and the amount of time that they can go between waterings will also change as the roots develop. Forget watching for the wilt, go by the weight of the container. Wait to water until that container is as light as a similar container filled with dry soil. Every soil is different and can hold different amounts of water. 1.5c for 2 gallon pots is simply a guess... always water just to runoff. Please do re-read my watering thread and please ask questions when you think you got it.

So I watered today At a ph of 6.7 I gave them both water till run off, it took a while to get some run off but with slowing pouring a total of just about 3 liters In them both, they are very heavy and it will definitely be easy to tell when they are dry. So imma wait till they are both dry and weight less till I water again correct? This is what u mean by wet/dry circle? Is this done every time I water? My run off ph was low at 5.9 and my ppm was very high at 6500-7000 does this matter tho In a organic grow?

 

[Emilya Green]

So I watered today At a ph of 6.7 I gave them both water till run off, it took a while to get some run off but with slowing pouring a total of just about 3 liters In them both, they are very heavy and it will definitely be easy to tell when they are dry. So imma wait till they are both dry and weight less till I water again correct? This is what u mean by wet/dry circle? Is this done every time I water? My run off ph was low at 5.9 and my ppm was very high at 6500-7000 does this matter tho In a organic grow?

Yes, it sounds like you got them wet this time, and now everytime before you water, they need to be dry. This will change when you get into bloom, but for now your goal is to grow roots, and this is how you do it... you hold back on the water so the roots grow looking for the very last drops in there.

Why are you measuring pH in an organic grow? The ONLY reason we adjust pH is so that in a synthetic nutrients grow, the locked up nutrients in the bottle become available to the plants, only when they are in a specific pH environment. Synthetic nutes... edta chelated.... the only time you need to carefully adjust pH. Your grow doesn't care. How is your ppm so high when you are not giving nutes??? Or, are you describing the ppm of the runoff?????? Runoff in soil is a collection of microfine particles of organic matter, sort of like coffee out of a percolator. Yes it is going to be high, and it matters zero to the grow. I know it is fun to play with the fancy meters, but you are wasting your time. pH, ppm and runoff mean nothing to an organic soil grow... don't even waste your time measuring them.

So lets see how long it takes your plants to be able to drain all that water. I bet it takes at least 7 days this first time, but if you do this right the next watering will take 4-5 days to dry out, then 3, and finally your plant will be able to drain all of that water you soaked into that soil, in 1 day. When you reach that point, you have a rootball and it will be time to uppot and start the process over again. Also, I think you said you were giving recharge twice a week. Since you are bringing in fresh microbes that often, you can stop using ro water... your tap water will actually be better. You can probably go with once a week on the recharge too... its right there in the directions.

 

[S0AR3R]

Yes, it sounds like you got them wet this time, and now everytime before you water, they need to be dry. This will change when you get into bloom, but for now your goal is to grow roots, and this is how you do it... you hold back on the water so the roots grow looking for the very last drops in there.

Why are you measuring pH in an organic grow? The ONLY reason we adjust pH is so that in a synthetic nutrients grow, the locked up nutrients in the bottle become available to the plants, only when they are in a specific pH environment. Synthetic nutes... edta chelated.... the only time you need to carefully adjust pH. Your grow doesn't care. How is your ppm so high when you are not giving nutes??? Or, are you describing the ppm of the runoff?????? Runoff in soil is a collection of microfine particles of organic matter, sort of like coffee out of a percolator. Yes it is going to be high, and it matters zero to the grow. I know it is fun to play with the fancy meters, but you are wasting your time. pH, ppm and runoff mean nothing to an organic soil grow... don't even waste your time measuring them.

So lets see how long it takes your plants to be able to drain all that water. I bet it takes at least 7 days this first time, but if you do this right the next watering will take 4-5 days to dry out, then 3, and finally your plant will be able to drain all of that water you soaked into that soil, in 1 day. When you reach that point, you have a rootball and it will be time to uppot and start the process over again. Also, I think you said you were giving recharge twice a week. Since you are bringing in fresh microbes that often, you can stop using ro water... your tap water will actually be better. You can probably go with once a week on the recharge too... its right there in the directions.

I figured measuring the ph and ppm of just my run off will give me a idea what’s wrong but I do ph my water to 6.2 and 6.7. The high ppm was from my soil run off it’s so high from the dry amendments I used in my soil I guess I went over kill? But I got a cheap RO device that’s a 4 stage filter so I took some of the filters off just to get rid of the chlorine and other things that would kill the good things. now after taking off unnecessary filters my RO water ppm is 20 but maybe adding cal mag and kelp meal will give my water what I want and keep out the bad? I just bought it so I can still return it maybe I just will. And I’m finally grasping the water all thanks to you, when do u start this water technique First week of veg?

Thanks for all the help I really appreciate it!

 

[SmokingWings]

In a “just water” pre amended soil
Started both plants in coco in solo cups
Just transferred plants in 2 Gallon fabric pots.

What @Emilya mentions is great advice for those of us who are growing in a natural soil mix.

Sometimes these "water only" pre-amended soils do not follow the same rules as our traditional soil mixes. It might be really helpful if you could tell us the exact name of the 'just water' soil mix you purchased.

Some of them are mostly peat-moss and coco coir with a minimal amount of worm castings added instead of any compost or soil. Some recommend not watering to "run-off" and instead learning to know the weight of the mix when it is dry as Emilya is recommending. Some of them will mention that their "water only" soil is good for just so long before the grower will have to consider adding fertilizers or nutrients.

Some of them have more information about the product and how to use it on their web site. IOW, it is not all on the back of the bag.

It is way to cold to walk around the yard so I spent Tuesday afternoon walking around grow and hydro shops looking at the bags of soils, coco coirs, amendments, and anything else on the pallets. My doctors do not care where I go for a walk, just that I go walking for so many minutes per day.

 

[Emilya Green]

I figured measuring the ph and ppm of just my run off will give me a idea what’s wrong but I do ph my water to 6.2 and 6.7. The high ppm was from my soil run off it’s so high from the dry amendments I used in my soil I guess I went over kill? But I got a cheap RO device that’s a 4 stage filter so I took some of the filters off just to get rid of the chlorine and other things that would kill the good things. now after taking off unnecessary filters my RO water ppm is 20 but maybe adding cal mag and kelp meal will give my water what I want and keep out the bad? I just bought it so I can still return it maybe I just will. And I’m finally grasping the water all thanks to you, when do u start this water technique First week of veg?

Thanks for all the help I really appreciate it!

The problem with measurements of runoff is that it is totally arbitrary, depending on the amount of the runoff. Where is an accurate amount of runoff that actually represents something in the soil above? is it 2%, 5% or 20% runoff where that reading actually means something? The correct answer is never... runoff readings have nothing to do with what is happening in the soil, no matter how many people out there advise you otherwise.

Yes, I start this process as soon as the seedling appears. If you coddle your plant, and because you overwater, the plant never has any needs, you will get a lazy plant. I hate to tell you this, but my plants following this method are bigger than yours at the end of the first week. Go through some of my journals to see this. You have to be cruel to be kind to a weed, and make that plant work for a living... force it to send out new roots to look for water by letting your plant go dry between waterings. It is better to see a vegging plant wilt than to overwater it by watering too soon.

You also seem to think that pH is a magical thing that always affects our grows. I threw my pH meter away for my organic grows... I have no need for it. The soil does not care what the pH of the incoming fluids is. The plants don't care either. Again, THE ONLY REASON that we need to pH adjust is when we are using synthetic nutrients... you are not. The system you have chosen does not care about pH either... you are wasting your time, and killing off a few microbes, by adding acid to your water to bring the pH down. It is unnecessary. Do you have a hydro person giving you your advice, or maybe you have come from that world? A water only supersoil grow is much easier to manage than you seem to think. You need to stop micromanaging and just let the process work. Before I get you to understand the uselessness of measuring pH, I have a question for you. What exactly do you mean that you adjust your pH to 6.2 and 6.7? How is that even possible? I only ask because this is such a wide range and neither is really where you would want it to be if you were using synthetic nutes.

Lastly, you seem to have missed my point about using the Recharge. You are adding millions of new fresh microbes every time you use this product. You have no need to filter your water. It takes swimming pool concentrations of chlorine to kill off the microbes... it takes tap water weeks before it kills your microbes in a closed container... but you are adding new microbes all the time, in the millions. The tap water can't touch this. Your grow is in no danger from tap water as long as you are adding Recharge regularly.

 

[Emilya Green]

I started in coco in soil cups watering in coco was so easy then soil. I always gave it till 10% run off. I read your post and adopted your techniques but I’m still just confused on how much water and at what stage of growth, i read at somewhere first water, water your plant and when you done what for how every long until you leaves wilt just a little then next time u water, water slightly before that time they started to wilt. So I went off that and also read 1.5 cups of water for 2 gallon pots. But I’m going to reread you post hopefully get some more out of it. I’m been thinking of a building a drip system maybe thatwould help me out by for water soil needs and not the plants?

You are not ready to read the wilt. Usually it is not wilt you will see anyway when it is time to water, you will just see the leaves go from above horizontal and pointing themselves at the light, to dropping to horizontal or below. This process starts at the bottom of the plant and moves up, and finally when there is no more water available to keep the water pressure up in the trunk of the plant, the plant will wilt and bend down at the trunk. Don't go that far, but even that would be better than overwatering.

Do yourself a favor and go by weight, the LIFT THE POT method. Compare the weight of your container with a similar one filled with dry soil. If your human senses can tell the difference between the weight of the containers, it is not time to water. Some people employ a kitchen or postal scale to take the guesswork out of it.

When you do water, water with gusto. You have already seen that it takes a whole lot more water than you have been giving, to properly saturate the soil. I even go back an hour or so after I have achieved runoff to see that the plants have sucked up that runoff water and the drip trays are dry. I then water again, slowly, to achieve runoff a second time. Then I know for sure that I have saturated that soil. My baseline as to how much water to give is variable, and dependent on how well developed the roots have gotten. This amount will go up, depending on the strength of your roots, which of course are starting to drink from the moment you start watering. The amount to give increases just a little bit each time you accomplish a wet/dry cycle. Your standard is your ability to see when the soil is actually saturated.

The time between waterings also changes each time. At first, like with a seedling, or a plant with damaged roots, it might take 10 days to get "dry." Each wet/dry cycle will speed that up a bit, until you get down to 1 day, when it is time to uppot and start the process over again. I have learned that 10 days is too long to let the plant go unattended, so I come back every 3-4 days to just give a mini watering... maybe a quarter of what the plant was able to take in the complete watering stage, and try to aim mostly for the outside edges of the container... entice the roots to grow in the direction of the most water. Give a little of that water to the entire top surface, so that your mini-watering also sends nourishment to the top layer of spreader roots, that exist from the top surface and down 3 or 4 inches. A mini watering should only nourish those areas, and not drop down to the water table, that lake that exists below the surface because of gravity pulling the water to the bottom. This mini watering should not add to the volume of the lake that you are waiting for the plant to use. Continue giving mini waterings every 3-4 days and continue to wait for the weight of the container to go down to dry levels. By working the plant in this manner, you can achieve massive growth. It takes constant work to actually achieve a rootball... they don't happen by accident.

 

[S0AR3R]

What @Emilya mentions is great advice for those of us who are growing in a natural soil mix.

Sometimes these "water only" pre-amended soils do not follow the same rules as our traditional soil mixes. It might be really helpful if you could tell us the exact name of the 'just water' soil mix you purchased.

Some of them are mostly peat-moss and coco coir with a minimal amount of worm castings added instead of any compost or soil. Some recommend not watering to "run-off" and instead learning to know the weight of the mix when it is dry as Emilya is recommending. Some of them will mention that their "water only" soil is good for just so long before the grower will have to consider adding fertilizers or nutrients.

Some of them have more information about the product and how to use it on their web site. IOW, it is not all on the back of the bag.

It is way to cold to walk around the yard so I spent Tuesday afternoon walking around grow and hydro shops looking at the bags of soils, coco coirs, amendments, and anything else on the pallets. My doctors do not care where I go for a walk, just that I go walking for so many minutes per day.

I used Detroit nutrients Co Great Lakes just water soil it does have peat moss and coco and many other things

 

[Emilya Green]

I started in coco in soil cups watering in coco was so easy then soil. I always gave it till 10% run off.

Coco is actually a lot of work and requires daily attention, sometimes twice a day, for the entire 4 months of a typical grow. You become a slave to your plants during this entire time.

Soil's charm is that even in the early stages, you can let a soil grow run on autopilot for days at a time. With large containers, it is easy to set up a grow that lets you maintain it once a week... in the meantime, take a ride to visit someone, go to the beach, and enjoy life. Soil is a beautiful thing. It in the long run is MUCH easier than coco.

 

[Emilya Green]

I used Detroit nutrients Co Great Lakes just water soil it does have peat moss and coco and many other things

Please note that manufacturers of soil are not usually experts in growing pot. Their advice to use a layer of rock in the bottom is extremely bad advice. Soil has great drainage all my itself and there is no need to add anything to make that better. Actually, because of capillary action, a layer of rock will never quite dry out, and without air down in that layer, anaerobic bacteria thrive, and they are the bad bacteria. Next time you tear down a grow such as this, smell your rock layer. That nasty smell is bad... and that bad could have damaged your grow. The secondary effect of this is that those rocks "perch" your water table up above the bottom, and the roots rarely go down in there. I advise strongly against that method of building a container.

 

[Emilya Green]

I will mention too that they say to never water to runoff.... lets clarify this bad advice too. Don't water so much that you are getting so much runoff that it can't be drawn back into the container by the suction of the roots. You don't want all the nutrients built into that good soil rinsed away. When I say to water to runoff, I mean water to the start of runoff, and then stop. This will not harm a thing.

 

[S0AR3R]

Please note that manufacturers of soil are not usually experts in growing pot. Their advice to use a layer of rock in the bottom is extremely bad advice. Soil has great drainage all my itself and there is no need to add anything to make that better. Actually, because of capillary action, a layer of rock will never quite dry out, and without air down in that layer, anaerobic bacteria thrive, and they are the bad bacteria. Next time you tear down a grow such as this, smell your rock layer. That nasty smell is bad... and that bad could have damaged your grow. The secondary effect of this is that those rocks "perch" your water table up above the bottom, and the roots rarely go down in there. I advise strongly against that method of building a container.

Yah I didn’t do the bottom layer method, should I be treating this soil as a coco or peat moss grow? Or treat it like soil, also I’m glad to hear ph and ppm doesn’t matter I don’t like messing with anyway haha my RO water does come out at a 6.7 but when I say 6.2-6.7 I just make sure my water is in that level. and I do get most of my advice from guys at the HTG I grow shop I have here in PA. all of which are using this soil, organically but everyone I know is using auto pots. But like I said this is my very first grow every, never grew anything in my life minus the mold in the bread box haha so it’s all a learning curve for me and getting so many different opinions But Im finally feeling much better on all of this thanks to you