Nute Burn or Deficiency...

[gmskunk]

Hello,

this is my first post and first grow.

What Strain is it? White Wido
Is it Indica, Sativa or Hybrid? What percentages? Indica:Sativa (60:40 I think)
How Many Plants? 1
Is it in Vegetative or Flowering Stage? Veg
If in Vegetative Stage... How Long? 1 month since seeds popped
Indoor or Outdoor? Indoor
Soil or Hydro? Hydro
If Hydro, Reservoir size? 2gallon
If Hydro, Reservoir Temperature? 68-75 F
If Hydro, what type of Medium? Rockwool + hydroton
If Hydro, what type of Setup? based on Stratlogic's completed grow journal - single 5 gal bucket / plant
Size (Wattage) of Light? How Many? Veg: 6 CFLs ~100W equivs with 4 blue specs and 2 orange/red + 4x4' T8 floros 6500k. Flower: 1 400W HPS (and maybe the 4x4' T8 floros
Is it Air Cooled? the fan blows on them, but they are not too hot...no worries
Temperature of Room/Cabinet? between 70-80 F
RH of Room/Cabinet? between 45-55...but in the beginning, I was having trouble keeping it over 30. after obtaining a spray bottle w/ ph-adjusted water, RH has not been an issue
PH of Medium or Reservoir? keeping it between 5.5 and 6.3 -- I think once the pH may have risen just north of 6.5+ but not for more than a day or two
Any Pests? no
How Often are you Watering? 1st 2 weeks: 25minutes every 2 hours, 2nd 2 weeks: 24/7
Type and Strength of Fertilizers used? Using AN Sensi GrowA+B during veg...will switch to BloomA+B during flower phase
Size or Square Footage of Room? (4x4x5)


Ok, here's the deal...the plants have progressed nicely, until 4-5 days ago when I started to notice a few of the oldest largest fan leaves starting to curl+discoloration (yellow/orange/brown) on the tips/edges. Being lazy, I had only been checking pH during the weekly reservoir change (Sundays).

weeks 1-2: just R/O ph=5.5-6 water (no nutes)

week3: intro'd the nutes @ 1.5tsp ANS GrowA + 1.5tsp ANS GrowB / 2 gallons of R/O water.
- growth was good and steady

week4: upped nutes to 2.5tsp ANS GrowA + 2.5tsp ANS GrowB / 2 (400ppm)
- growth began to slow and bottom oldest/largest fan leaves began to curl+discoloration (yellow/orange/brown) on the tips/edges.
- I dropped the pH and immediately thinking I had nute burn and began researching pics on the internet to confirm. I then re-read a few grow journals and starting thinking that maybe I had a deficiency instead (this seems to be hard to tell). Sure enough, the pics looked like a deficiency (but also a nute burn). Hell it could even be a deficiency due to lockout (had issues with RH/temps) So I upped the nutes to ~650-700ppm for 2 days...problems didn't increase too much, but now a few of the newer leaves a little higher up started to show signs of discolorations on the edges.

So here's where I'm at as of 2 hours ago: I flushed the roots this morning and filled the reservoir with R/O ph'd water (no nutes). I started a log in excel so that I can keep notes (2x / day) on the PPM/pH/RH to see if I can determine whether nute burn or deficiency based on the fluctuations of these metrics (if I wasn't a lazy fucker I'd of done this from day 1).


As a side note: My other plant (same setup, same growth stage) is a northern lights hybrid (similar Ind/Sat ratio) and is looking short/strong and super green and healthy...it only has 1 or 2 tiny spots on two leaves. This plant has had the same dosage until I bumped the nutes on the White Widow. This plant is slightly shorter but I'm keeping the nute levels around 350ppm.


The only logical and cohesive conclusion I can come to is: the White Widow is closest to the fan (which was blowing on medium speed directly at the plants during week 3) and maybe that has caused nute burn in the WW (white widow) and not the NL (northern lights) due to the increased transpiration rate of the White Widow from more wind. I've since moved the fan closer to the middle and angled it up higher towards the lights on LOW...much less air flow against both plants.

pics to come...

 

[gmskunk]

I used to laugh at people when they "lost their cameras" during the grow journals that I read...until it happened to me. My camera broke around wk3 and so some of the newer pics have been from my digital camcorder (sucky maybe only 1 megapixel?)

Pic1: middle of week 4 (since seeds popped) - troubled area boxed in blue

Pic2: close up of problem leaf

Pic3: another close up of problem leaf

Pic4: here's how it looked beginning of week 3

 

[gmskunk]

Here's what the setup is like...buckets are labeled...fan sits on the bucket to the far right (closest to the WW).

 

[gmskunk]

note: I just started using a spray bottle for the past week which has helped greatly with the RH. I really think that may be part of the problem...again, because I was a lazy fuck, I did not keep an eye on crucial variables...and hence I'm now lost on the cause of this problem. I will not make that mistake in future grows.

 

[McBudz]

Thanks for providing all the info

As I'm sure you can tell each plant/strain likes different diets. But I think what concerns me most here is not being cognizant of your pH between res changes. While I like that you give yourself 2 gallons or so per plant which will aid in limiting pH flux you need to stay on top of it since as nutes get absorbed by the plant the pH of the res will usually climb. As this happens certain nutrients get locked out at higher pH such as:

Nitrogen, Iron, Manganese, Boron, Copper, zinc and eventually calcium.

I like your idea of keeping a journal. Everyone should including myself, well not a paper one.

If you are unsure if its def, lockout, or burn the last thing you want to do is up the nutes. If you are having lockout or burn this will only compound the effect. certain mineral build ups lockout other nutrients that may be available in the given pH but now are not. Also these buildups and become highly toxic to the plants. It is always best to relcalibrate yourself and start out at straight RO pH adjusted water and flush the plants for a 12-24 hours then add the nutes back at an acceptable strength.

Without pictures its really hard to judge what exaclty is taking place here. It is not uncommon for some of the older lower leaves to die off. Especially if the canopy has thickened up and not a whole lot of light is reaching the lower leaves. They are the solar powerhouses and if no real usuable light reaches them they will die off as they are not needed.

Looking forward to the pics

 

[gmskunk]

edit: malfunctioning meter...taking a more reliable reading.

 

[gmskunk]

McBudz,

Thanks for the feedback...pics are up...hit refresh.

 

[McBudz]

Ok so what changed between beginning of week 3 and now? maybe as root system and plant grew it uses nutrients more rapidly so your pH is going higher and higher between changes.

This only occurred on the older fan leaf and towards the bottom/middle of plant?

It looks like a burn to be honest but I am surprised it did not happen anywhere near the grow tips which would usually be the case but really depends on which element is doing the burning.

But given the fact that pH was not carefully monitored I am going to lean more towards possible manganese lockout/def due to high pH. It will cause interveinal chlorosis and it looks like you have it pretty bad. So you are on track with the flush now just keep an eye on the pH. Monitor twice daily until you get the feel for when it will need to be adjusted. Try to keep your pH 5.5-5.8. Then slowly bring your nutes up to 1/2 -2/3 of recommend strength.

I feel like your plants should be bigger for 5.5 weeks but they def look good aside from the obvious leaf damage.

 

[gmskunk]

Ok so what changed between beginning of week 3 and now?

that's the big-picture problem...I didn't keep close enough of an eye on the environmental variables.

This only occurred on the older fan leaf and towards the bottom/middle of plant?

yes originally. as of the past day or two, I've noticed spots on some of the mid-level fan leaves (all new growth at top is green green green).

But given the fact that pH was not carefully monitored I am going to lean more towards possible manganese lockout/def due to high pH. It will cause interveinal chlorosis and it looks like you have it pretty bad.

yes agreed; this is a very plausible explanation.

So you are on track with the flush now just keep an eye on the pH. Monitor twice daily until you get the feel for when it will need to be adjusted. Try to keep your pH 5.5-5.8. Then slowly bring your nutes up to 1/2 -2/3 of recommend strength.

will do.

I feel like your plants should be bigger for 5.5 weeks but they def look good aside from the obvious leaf damage.

Sorry, just noticed the typo (edited now)...plants are in the middle of week 4. At 4.5 weeks old (the germinated seeds were placed in the buckets with domes and 24/hr light on 3/2), they do not appear to be too far off in expected size (based on pics from other grow journals).

Given that I've had problems for the past 1-1.5 weeks, a bit of stunted growth seems like a very plausible result.

Thanks for all your help so far. Keep the advice coming.



Update: just checked the pH of WW1 (4.5 hours since this morning's flushing) and the pH had crept back up from 5.9 to 6.25 (ppms remained ~20ish). Guess the extra boost is coming from a good cleansing of the root system. BTW, I haven't really mentioned the root system yet, but they look super white and healthy on both plants although NL1 has more (but that could just be due to differences in strain).

Next update in about 6-7 hours.

 

[gmskunk]

4/2/09 -- PM check
RH=55 @ 75 F

WW1:
- pH had risen slightly still very acceptable for flush
- no noticeable changes in appearance.

NL1
- had to drop the pH a tad
- ppms remain around 350
- no noticeable changes in appearance.

 

[Racefan]

Are you running that ridiculous mini res inside a res like strato did? That might be adding to your problem. It will keep your res size smaller which equates to a faster wider ph drift. A 5 gallon container should hold a minimum of 3 gallons of solution and even that too small really. The rule of thumb is 5 gallons of solution per plant. What are your resevoir temps? Higher temps will reduce o2 levels in the solution and add to that the ph drift and your a prime candidate for nutrient lock out. I think McBudz has hit the problem. Mag def.
What PPM are you running at 5 weeks? I would be at about 800 to 900 at that point. Are you running 350? They might just be hungry too. Damn I would be if I was on 1/3rd rations for 4 or more weeks.

 

[gmskunk]

Are you running that ridiculous mini res inside a res like strato did? That might be adding to your problem. It will keep your res size smaller which equates to a faster wider ph drift. A 5 gallon container should hold a minimum of 3 gallons of solution and even that too small really.

yes just like strat's...I don't have a pic of mine in action so here's his. Also, I drilled a few small drain holes in the bottom of the internal bucket to make sure all the water gets cycled, not just the top when it over fills.

What are your resevoir temps? Higher temps will reduce o2 levels in the solution and add to that the ph drift and your a prime candidate for nutrient lock out. I think McBudz has hit the problem. Mag def.

reservoir temps haven't gone north of 75-77 in the past 3 weeks. Had some temp issues at the very beginning.

What PPM are you running at 5 weeks? I would be at about 800 to 900 at that point. Are you running 350? They might just be hungry too. Damn I would be if I was on 1/3rd rations for 4 or more weeks.

Yes, I'm at 350ppm on the NL1. I'll bump that to 600ppm during the next reservoir change if I see a steady decrease in ppm with an increase in pH (indicating the plant is taking the nutes).

As for WW1, I'm planning on flushing for another day or two and then will start back in on the nutes at around 200ppm.

Does that sound like a reasonable plan? Maybe your plants were bigger @ 5 weeks and that's why they were taking 8-900ppm.

 

[gmskunk]

4/3/09 -- AM check
RH=55 @ 77 F

WW1:
- pH remains around 5.5-5.6
- no discernible change in problem areas...maybe a little stretch going on.

NL1:
- had to drop the pH a tad (from 6 to 5.75)
- ppms were down from 350 to 330
- not much change. two fan leafs at the bottom have a few spots, but that is likely from dripping nute-covered probes on them when removed from reservoir post testing.

Questions:
1. should I wear any type of gloves when handling the plants? or is that over kill?
2. Water temps were around 83 F. This seems to be standard during my AM checks as they plants are coming off of about 14 hours of light. Dark cycle starts around 2pm. Is that too high?


Pics:

Pic 1: both plants side by side...

Pic 2: NL1

Pic 3: WW1

Pic 4: WW1 - root system

New camera coming in the next 2 weeks...

 

[flyfishinrock]

83 is very high, at that temp disease can take hold rather easily. Try to get it down into the lower 70's. Increasing the res size or adding a frozen bottle of water (or ice pack) to the rez will also help.

 

[gmskunk]

83 is very high, at that temp disease can take hold rather easily. Try to get it down into the lower 70's. Increasing the res size or adding a frozen bottle of water (or ice pack) to the rez will also help.

cool...I'll start adding frozen bottles of water to drop the res. temps.


also, I just added 4 more CFLs...so now there are 10 total for 2 plants.

 

[Racefan]

Every time I let my reservoir temps get over 70degrees I start to see problems. 83 means they are suffocating. I'm truly surprised you don't have algae starting to grow already. The lower the temps the more o2 the water will hold. I use frozen water bottles in the reservoir and have a fan that blows air across the top of the reservoir too. Just small 4" pc fans work great. this helps with the RH too as it causes a more rapid evap process to occure. Of course each action has a reaction. the higher the evap the more I have to check my ppm and ph.
Personally IMO your little res in a res is hampering your set up. That little inner container has no function. It won't help growth and in any way. All it does is give a spot for roots to get cut off as they out grow it. Put the air stone in the bottom of the 5 gallon bucket, pull the inner container and add some more solution. Your PPM and PH will remain more stable longer if you do.
Go slow when you up your nutrients. Don't just double it. Go to 500ppm for a week then 650 or 700 for a week etc. You don't want to shock them. When you start to see the tips of your leaves burn back off the nutrient a hair. you will be at the max nutrient level then.

 

[gmskunk]

16oz water bottles are in the freezer now. Will add them to the res. as soon as the lights come back on. But first I am going to change out both solutions as I want to get rid of any bacteria that may have crept in due to high res. temps. I will keep the WW1 flushing, and the NL1 at the same nute level.

definitely going to rethink the bucket setup before the next grow. i couldn't help but notice the great results Strato was having which led to my emulation of his setup (yields > 5oz /plant?). But I'm now seeing the advantages of a large res. with less pH fluctuations. My grow box is in the attic BTW, so marching up and down the ladder is a real PITA.

thank you for the advice.


edit: just found this thead (How do I find out what's wrong with my plant?) and likely have magnesium deficiency like someone mentioned earlier.

 

[gmskunk]

4/3/09 -- PM check
RH=45 @ 75 F

WW1 (adjusted to pH 5.5 @ 30 ppm)
- changed the water out, cleaned the internals of the res. as much as possible.
- added a frozen 16oz water bottle and rechecked 2 hours later and temp was holding around 70 F.

NL1 (adjusted to pH 5.6 @ 390 ppm)
- changed the water out, cleaned the internals of the res. as much as possible.
- added a frozen 16oz water bottle and rechecked 2 hours later and temp was holding around 71 F.

Questions:
1. What pH should I use in the spray bottle for my plants?
I noticed some very very faint spots (like a slightly lighter shade green) on most of the leaves on the WW1. Could this be from the spray bottle which contains water (pH 5.6)? I've been hitting both plants about 2x / day and there are zero spots on the NL1

 

[gmskunk]

going out of town today...be back sunday evening.

Is it possible to have this thread moved to the journals forum? I think that's what this will turn into. Maybe change the name to "gmskunk: hydro1 (Widow + Northern Lights)"...

oh and when I return, I'll be heading to the hydro store to check out some cal-mag as I'm using R/O water and have seen good things in other journals using R/O.

 

[Be Irie]

GMS, why don't we leave this one here, in case someone else runs into this same problem. When you return Sunday just start a journal from that point.