Nick Hardy's Skunk Works #2 The Giant SIP Outdoor Soil: Thailand!

[Keffka]

I’ve been watching a lot of a Youtube channel called CannaCribs recently which is fun. Its about commercial grows., some absolutely as big as they come, 10’s of thousands of sq/f grows. Not seen anyone doing it. Think I’m gonna stick a strip of the reflective insulation on the window behind to give some extra light, but the actual 200w - that’s just to try and flip her, build in memory of the street lights, and background light ‘noise’ with a week of mega light at night. Prevent her hermie’ing

Sort of related, I’ve been reading a lot about light poisoning during dark periods and herming. The main idea I’ve come across in multiple areas is this:

“This observation has recently been proven by Dr. Bruce Bugbee who demonstrated that none of the cultivars studied could perceive light below about 10 nanomoles.

This is about 5X as much illumination as full moonlight and is enough light to read a large print book”

That’s pretty bright. Now, to be fair, full moonlight can be pretty subjective when there’s no limits placed on it. Is this full moonlight in a rural area, or a city? Is this in a mountainous region or the plains? The full moonlight I saw in Afghanistan was much brighter than anything I’ve seen in Detroit, Kentucky, Korea, etc.

10 nanomoles is a good measurement but that leads to more questions like the following.

They didn’t provide the cultivars. Were these indica or sativa? Hybrids? Since this is Bugbee, was this hemp?

Lots of variables and questions but my main takeaway was, cannabis can handle a considerable amount of light during its “dark” period, which makes sense, because for the majority of cannabis’ history, it was bathed in moonlight without polluted skies. I wouldn’t make a habit out of turning my lights on, but I’ve also become much less anal about things like the light on my heater.

 

[NickHardy]

Totally, depends if Bruce is smoking anything at the tome - our main flower room though coated with silver 5mm insulation foam some of the windows on the east wall weren’t covered in blackout film so they get sunshine, just a bit from 6:30am and lights on at 8am - off at 8pm. So they’re not really on 12/12. But don’t hermie. I hope anyway! A week out from harvest.

We’re in the tropics in Thailand which is nearly 12/12 all year round. So we keep the outdoor ones artificially in veg with some extra light. Just overhead house lights on the balcony.

Dunno you ever buy local bush weed/thai sticks type here its full of seeds i’m using the extra bright light to try and create like a “muscle memory” for the plant so she maybe doesn’t worry about the other ambient light after.

Just a little experiment. She hermies I’ll really not be worried about it! Doubt we’ll be selling any of it, just a hobby thing.

 

[InTheShed]

for the majority of cannabis’ history, it was bathed in moonlight without polluted skies.

Moonlight is completely variable over the course of a month, from no light to full moonlight to days when it's not up at all at night, not to mention cloud cover during any part of those! So cannabis must be used to it all.

That said, spectrum may matter, as well as intermittence. I'd say a far away streetlight (10 nanomoles?) might be okay, but a security light that goes on and off all night, a car parked with headlights on for 20 minutes and then leaves, room lights that go on and off during lights out and find gaps in the tent vents, etc. probably aren't the same as what moonlight does to plants.

 

[Keffka]

Moonlight is completely variable over the course of a month, from no light to full moonlight to days when it's not up at all at night, not to mention cloud cover during any part of those! So cannabis must be used to it all.

That said, spectrum may matter, as well as intermittence. I'd say a far away streetlight (10 nanomoles?) might be okay, but a security light that goes on and off all night, a car parked with headlights on for 20 minutes and then leaves, room lights that go on and off during lights out and find gaps in the tent vents, etc. probably aren't the same as what moonlight does to plants.

I dug in a little further because as is usual I thought the truth would lie somewhere in the middle and I found that:

Spectrum does matter for sure. Red light is how plants measure light/dark and create a rhythm. It’s called phytochrome interconversion. This basically allows the plant to sense the photoperiod rhythm which in turn allows it to sense when it’s days shorten, causing flowering to happen. It uses red and far light in an effort to maintain equilibrium, thus giving it, it’s rhythm.

Now because of the phytochrome interconversion there’s this:

“A cannabis plant that is exposed to a 12-hour (flowering) photoperiod will not flower if there is a 10-minute exposure to red light of a moderate intensity near the middle of the skotoperiod. If the red light exposure is followed by exposure to far-red light of a similar intensity and duration, the plant will flower as if the red-light interruption did not occur”

What qualifies as moderate intensity I’m not sure, I couldn’t find that. I assume it’s more than the red light on your humidifier since that was the explicit example given of something that wouldn’t effect the plant.

So with all that, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Yes light can cause problems, especially specific types of light, but there is also a lot of weak genetics out there. Know your cultivar and what to expect from it. As always, it’s an exciting time to be alive, I think we will find the truth to a lot of this stuff in my life time.

 

[Azimuth]

“A cannabis plant that is exposed to a 12-hour (flowering) photoperiod will not flower if there is a 10-minute exposure to red light of a moderate intensity near the middle of the skotoperiod. If the red light exposure is followed by exposure to far-red light of a similar intensity and duration, the plant will flower as if the red-light interruption did not occur”

I think I remember reading on this site that the order of red light and far red light matters as well in that it's a switch so the plant reacts to whichever came last.

 

[Keffka]

I think I remember reading on this site that the order of red light and far red light matters as well in that it's a switch so the plant reacts to whichever came last.

Correct, a toggle effect is what they call it. As long as you hit the plant with similar intensity and duration far red light after the red, everything should be okay.

The plant works off of the last stimulus it had.

 

[Jon]

Correct, a toggle effect is what they call it. As long as you hit the plant with similar intensity and duration far red light after the red, everything should be okay.

The plant works off of the last stimulus it had.

I can tell you this from only direct experience. You can use reds from day one of flower to the end and never interrupt anything. I have reds, far reds, and IR on my big light. 12 hours a day. They love it. And they get super frosty. More so than with any other light I have. For what it’s worth.

 

[NickHardy]

I can tell you this from only direct experience. You can use reds from day one of flower to the end and never interrupt anything. I have reds, far reds, and IR on my big light. 12 hours a day. They love it. And they get super frosty. More so than with any other light I have. For what it’s worth.

Me too - all Mars and Meijiu do. In fact my new light has UV/Cold/Warm dimmers but the near and far are always on - I think. Maybe you need the whites on as well. Haven’t fired her up yet.

 

[Keffka]

I can tell you this from only direct experience. You can use reds from day one of flower to the end and never interrupt anything. I have reds, far reds, and IR on my big light. 12 hours a day. They love it. And they get super frosty. More so than with any other light I have. For what it’s worth.

My statement was referring to Night Interruption in photos. Hitting the plants in the middle of the dark period for 10-15 minutes with red prevents flowering, unless it is followed with similar far red.

Everyone’s lights should have red, it’s actually the red ratio that dictates a lot of its quality.

 

[NickHardy]

My statement was referring to Night Interruption in photos. Hitting the plants in the middle of the dark period for 10-15 minutes with red prevents flowering, unless it is followed with similar far red.

Everyone’s lights should have red, it’s actually the red ratio that dictates a lot of its quality.

Would that be why perhaps blue lights from cameras and such things that like a blue LED power light are anecdotally blamed for hermies?

Like a red/orange from a power strip would have less negative value with what I’m postulating.

Nick

 

[bluter]

Would that be why perhaps blue lights from cameras and such things that like a blue LED power light are anecdotally blamed for hermies?

Like a red/orange from a power strip would have less negative value with what I’m postulating.

red will cause the most issues. blue will cause fewer. green is used as a work light since it will not effect the plants at night.

moonlight does not affect them because it is a reflected light, and is stripped of most of the spectrum effecting plant growth. street lamps etc can affect them as they are a direct source.

 

[Keffka]

moonlight does not affect them because it is a reflected light, and is stripped of most of the spectrum effecting plant growth. street lamps etc can affect them as they are a direct source.

How does the spectrum get stripped from the reflected light?

 

[bluter]

How does the spectrum get stripped from the reflected light?

it's bounce light, a magnitude weaker than direct sunlight, and most doesn't make it through the atmosphere.

 

[Keffka]

it's bounce light, a magnitude weaker than direct sunlight, and most doesn't make it through the atmosphere.

That answer didn’t make me happy so I went and dug around

I found a few research articles and images. Most of it was unnecessary for our convo but this was cool:

So this graph/chart/image right here is why moonlight doesn’t affect the plants in data.

The surface of the moon is dark, and dusty. This causes the moon to reflect only 12% of the sunlight that hits it. This 12% is then scattered wildly as it moves back out of the dust and slight atmosphere the moon has. The actual light that hits the planet from the moon is vastly weaker across all of the spectrum and considerably across the red which would cause flowering issues.

 

[NickHardy]

That is super fascinating, and thank you both @bluter and @Keffka - I think I’ve caught up!

Ok - to recap!

I’m totally wrong, I thought red was OK in flower (At night) , I never paid in attention in class and so I’m sorry!

Turns out that moonlight has negligible effects in flower See Shed above), but also specifically its an order (must be plural?) magnitude less bright because its reflected light through space and atmosphere (See Bluter) and then but something about that light on the specific dusty battered surface means that which is reflected is stripped of particularly the reds you really want to avoid for problems in flower at night (Keffka)

Am I doing OK so far? That’s been awesome reading so far if I’m right.

My last chance at contributing anything meaningful her having gone the wrong way with reds at night (Shepherds Delight, Growers Warning) Is probably - its like that because the reds are a trigger of some kind? Its the reason why they developed like that? Just the interaction between sun and moon has been like that so the plant evolved like that. I wonder too if the red spectrum differs at the northern latitudes where Ruderalis for crossing to make Autos is originates?

Anyway - been awesome reading and having a think.

 

[Keffka]

That is super fascinating, and thank you both @bluter and @Keffka - I think I’ve caught up!

Ok - to recap!

I’m totally wrong, I thought red was OK in flower (At night) , I never paid in attention in class and so I’m sorry!

Turns out that moonlight has negligible effects in flower See Shed above), but also specifically its an order (must be plural?) magnitude less bright because its reflected light through space and atmosphere (See Bluter) and then but something about that light on the specific dusty battered surface means that which is reflected is stripped of particularly the reds you really want to avoid for problems in flower at night (Keffka)

Am I doing OK so far? That’s been awesome reading so far if I’m right.

My last chance at contributing anything meaningful her having gone the wrong way with reds at night (Shepherds Delight, Growers Warning) Is probably - its like that because the reds are a trigger of some kind? Its the reason why they developed like that? Just the interaction between sun and moon has been like that so the plant evolved like that. I wonder too if the red spectrum differs at the northern latitudes where Ruderalis for crossing to make Autos is originates?

Anyway - been awesome reading and having a think.

So the reason reds have such influence is because of Phytochrome. Phytochrome are photoreceptors that respond to red and far red light in a process called interconversion. As the light shines down the Phytochrome red becomes saturated and converts to Phytochrome far-red. These two proteins are constantly trying to reach equilibrium, and because of this, when the light goes out, the phytochrome far-red starts to slowly convert back to Phytochrome red.

This is how the plant establishes its rhythm, and how it knows the lights are going to go out before they turn off. If you’re in the middle of a dark period and all of a sudden red light hits the plant, it begins to saturate the phytochrome red again, pushing it toward far-red.

Since the plant operates off of the toggle effect, it goes off of the last stimulus it was given. That’s why if you follow up the red light with a far-red blast you can reverse the interruption, but if you don’t do this, then the last signal the plant is tracking is the red light.

 

[NickHardy]

To the plant in question for a moment. Some weird weather round these parts the last week, a couple of for us cold days, down as low as 25c, lots of cloud cover. Mixed in with some more normal dry season 33c days and a total stall in the vertical. Maybe she’s at 43”

I have her a top water of 12 gallons bottled water, I needed the bottles for various things but would have preferred our borehole water as it has a little something in it unfiltered.

Dunno! The res reads about full when I stuck a stick in her, there are signs of new growth though, since yesterday.

Flipping is still a ways off - still nice green, probably give her little neem later. There’s some whitefly about still.

But yeah still not really done anything to her. She looks healthy and has had nothing but plain old water since the start. Lovely relaxing grow at the moment. Though I had a momentary panic she’s flipped already, I think its just getting ready for a kick. It was hot and lovely Tuesday, really cold and damp yesterday so that new growth probably got stalled a little. Now even by end of day I think she’ll be noticeably bigger.

Nick

 

[Carmen Ray]

Well look at those leaves pray. Have you brix tested? Healthy colour!
I only ask about the brix testing as a matter of interest and curiosity. I'd love to brix test my little outdoor auto, as I believe it would score well without me doing anything or even trying. I don't have a testing device so it's all just a guess but that plant has no visible insect damage at all. Hopefully it stays that way.
I think your plant looks good.

 

[NickHardy]

Well look at those leaves pray. Have you brix tested? Healthy colour!
I only ask about the brix testing as a matter of interest and curiosity. I'd love to brix test my little outdoor auto, as I believe it would score well without me doing anything or even trying. I don't have a testing device so it's all just a guess but that plant has no visible insect damage at all. Hopefully it stays that way.
I think your plant looks good.

Been brixed at 9.5% but that was a couple of weeks ago. & Co needs to help me and she’s currently up potting 37 plants downstairs so I reckon it’ll have to wait Maybe later today/tomorrow - I also want to do it when she’s had a little more sun. The big rains have started across the Gulf of Thailand (where & Co is from) so we should be set for fair weather now.

 

[NickHardy]

Well look at those leaves pray. Have you brix tested? Healthy colour!
I only ask about the brix testing as a matter of interest and curiosity. I'd love to brix test my little outdoor auto, as I believe it would score well without me doing anything or even trying. I don't have a testing device so it's all just a guess but that plant has no visible insect damage at all. Hopefully it stays that way.
I think your plant looks good.

So to Brix. A fairly underwhelming 9.3%

@Gee64 I’m taking low down, “back side” leaves to test. Will this impact? She’s not big enough yet to start wanting to take bigger sunny side fans from - love a defoliation indoors me but doesn’t feel like the time now.