Newbie using 400w hps in a 3x3 w/ fox farm.. Nirvana seeds

[StonedyCreek]

My main goal out of this thread, is to inform the general public reading, of all my current knowledge, habits , and probably most abudent, MISTAKES. I would like to start by explaining the first grow setup I was using (FlorescentS), and if my reasoning for switching to HPS was justified. Here we go.

I always start with good seed genetics. Ive had the most success with ------------------- . They really go out of their way to emphasize "discreet" packaging and their high quality seeds always arrive in a timely fashion-- and at a great price too. I've been checking out Nirvana seeds too, and I'll soon have a right to give an opinion on them soon.

Anyway, right now im working with some Pineapple Kush. I have 3, 4 foot shop lights with 2 tubes on each, 3 independent hanging cfl's putting out about 40 w each, and an AEROgarden elite, which has 3, 40watt floros . All of them are cool white, which I recently found out is only best for VEG growth not flowering. I believe that I have roughly between 250-350 watt output in a 3x6 grow space. they all averaged about 2 1/2 ft when I switched to flowering, 12-12 light ( still using cool white.. unfortunately). THEY TOOK OFF LIKE MONSTERS. ALL PLANTS WELL OVER 5 FEET NOW. theres decent leaf to bud ratio.*** but at most 1 oz - 1 1 /2 oz per plant.*** This is probably week 6 into flowering and it just seems like im starving them for the light they truly want. So is it the soil, the light, the nutrients, or what? why do I have 6 footers with so little budding?

**** What I really want to get out of this new grow setup, is SHORTerrr plants, with a higher bud to leaf ratio. basically, I dont want to invest 6 months for a closet full of stems and leaves****
Here is my new plan, and hopefully I can gain some criticism and valuable information from everyone out there on the forum with a crop of their own.


1. 3x3x 7ft grow tent. I would think that should help big time by confining the light and making the plant do more with the light per sq. in.

2. 400 watt hps/MH-- enough said. I have 0% knowledge on these things. except, there hot, and dangerous.

3. Still using soil? I was using all FOX FARM products but had 0% gains. Probably run with miracle gro this time for cost factor.

4. I do have a ventillation system, if it will controll heat levels is another question.

I've never used a hps before (hear there very dangerous) so this would be my main area of concern. how far to keep it from plants during veg, how many lumens does that give me per sq., how far should the light be during flowering, and is a 3x3x7 a big enough area for a 400watts hps? ANY USEFUL INFO FROM PEOPLE WITH EXPERIENCE USING HPS/MH IN SOIL WOULD BE IDEAL.

Im like a sponge right now so anything related to growing pot would be highly valuable in an educational sense. Sorry for writing a novel but I'm super passionate about this. Thanks for everyones time and concern. I hope everybody out theres got the greenest green and keeps fighting the good fight!! god bless all

 

[Ace203344]

hi STONEDYCREEK,
Help us Help you. General rule of thumb is 50 lumen per sq foot min.

 

[TorturedSoul]

THEY TOOK OFF LIKE MONSTERS. ALL PLANTS WELL OVER 5 FEET NOW.

Yeah, cannabis plants stretch during the first 40% of the flowering period.

im starving them for the light they truly want.

why do I have 6 footers with so little budding?

Not a lot of light and if you just let them grow upwards instead of training them nice and flat so you could hope to light all of the plant then it is likely that you've got a little light on the tops and very little on the rest of the plant.

SHORTerrr plants

Train them.

3x3x 7ft grow tent. I would think that should help big time by confining the light and making the plant do more with the light per sq. in.

We generally figure things in terms of square feet (or square meters) instead of square inches. But yeah, planning the size of your grow so that you can adequately light it is always a good idea.

400 watt hps/MH-- enough said. I have 0% knowledge on these things. except, there hot

Not especially. A 400-watt HPS produces less gross heat than 400 watts' worth of florescent lighting (and about twice as much light, in practical terms). You might notice the heat more from the HPS since it's all coming from one source instead of many (IOW, the surface of the bulb will be hotter). It's also easier to deal with the heat from a HPS. An air-cooled reflector can be used to remove the majority of the heat (do not use the air from the grow to cool it, bring air in from outside the grow, send it through the fixture, and back outside and it won't smell like cannabis). Not to mention that a decent HID setup will have a remote ballast, so the heat that it generates won't be in your GR (or tent) - it's slightly more involved to remote the ballasts in florescent fixtures and almost nobody bothers to remote the ones in CFLs.

and dangerous.

NO, they are not. Oh, I suppose if you let a little kid play with one. Or a drunken monkey try to run too many of them on one circuit, or hang them with shoestrings, or decide to mist his plants which are inches from a hot bulb that's running in an open reflector, or... You get the picture. You may have noticed the hundreds (if not thousands) of journals in our forums that use some form of HID lighting? If so, you probably also noticed that not a single one of them ended with the words, "And that's how my house burned down." And while most folks apply a modicum of sense to GR setup, a few of the... more creative (to be kind) setups would make a person of average or better intelligence walk away shaking their head and muttering, lol. Even they managed to avoid disaster.

Still using soil? I was using all FOX FARM products but had 0% gains. Probably run with miracle gro this time for cost factor.

I find that I am not as big a fan of Fox Farms as I once was. But many people still swear by it and do well. Add 25%-33% perlite and maybe some extra lime (if you grow for longer time in the same soil) to a bag of FFOF and it's all right. I'm not a fan of MG. Part of that is that I don't like the formulations all that much and part of it is their idea that they'll move into the cannabis market within a year by buying up some of the smaller soil/nutrient companies; I've never been a fan of the "If you cannot compete, buy up the other players" strategy. But some people have used MG with decent results. I think that Matanuska Valley has used it with excellent results (MV, apologies to you if I am mistaken).

If it's cost that you're worried about, consider something with a combination of perlite and vermiculite - possibly a "2liter hempy" setup such as 420fied and others have been using and journaling, possibly something else. The last time I bought them, a four cubic foot bag (of either) was around $15.

Or even a simple home-built DWC.

I've never used a hps before (hear there very dangerous)

Again, no, they aren't.

how far to keep it from plants during veg

Use the back of your hand as a guide. For seedlings, increase the distance (relatively) quite a bit to start with and decrease it over a week or two. If the seedlings look like they're stretching and about to fall over, the light is too far away.

3x3x7 a big enough area for a 400watts hps?

It's fine. Get a quality "sealed" reflector that has a specular aluminum 95% reflectivity inner surface covering everything except the glass and the opening on each side (some cheaper ones just have white sides and some have a lower reflectivity, 85% I believe). Ventilate it separately from the tent - the air coming from it will be heated, but will only smell like air. You'll still want to ventilate your tent for gas exchange and because there will be some heat in it. But that fan can be smaller as you won't be moving as much air; and if you choose to use a carbon filter - you probably will, unless you (and your neighbors) like to smell cannabis in flower - you can use a smaller one and it will last longer.

Just follow common-sense guidelines. Use correctly grounded outlets, do not overload any circuits, keep your bulb dry, when jacking up your vehicle to work under it always use jack stands and chock the wheels which remain on the ground, and do not tell anyone that you are growing. You'll be fine.

 

[dadums]

I did ok with mg first try, then went organic and did much better. Blue planets is a sponsor and gives great results with little cost. Keep reading the journals and find one that is close to what you are setting up and you'll just fine.

 

[StonedyCreek]

hey TS, thank you for your in depth answer. All of your information has been very helpful, and I would like to add on a few things..

For starters, MY BAD haha, I definetely meant sq. FEET on the estimate for my grow tent. also I noticed you emphasized training your plants. Does this involve clipping part of the plant? Tying down branches? This is my least knowledgeable area as I always thought plants do better when you avoid stress, e.g. pruning, tying down..) but i know what your saying works because I have seen the results from other growers, just lack the knowledge to do so myself..

As for the HPS needing ventilation, do you think a homemade self rigged remedy would suffice? Im trying to avoid an extensive ventilation system.. maybe a small house fan directing outside air onto the light? The smell is not so much the issue here. anyhow ill be giving it a shot soon enough, just want to put a little time between this grow and my last.. The yield was a little bit smaller than expected, and the cost of these seeds are worth me doing a little more research. I'd say so far it's working! Problem with the light though. I got my hands on a bunch of equip. from a guy at work that bailed on his setup. Couldn't beat the price but the reflector of the light ( brand new) is not "SEALED" as you put. It is more of a " free hanging" bat wing style light fixture. Would you say this is a bad start?

So far all together I got my light, some feminized maui waui, feminized master kush, and Im still a little undecided on what size tent. I know I said 3x3x7 but its seeming like 3x3 might be pushing it towards too small. as long as the 400hps still gives out the same lumens.. it seems like a 4x4 or something might be a little more practical. So I'm just saying I happen to have a choice for now.

I think I'll take a break from fox farm too. Between the $10 grocery bag size of dirt and the $55 trio pack of nutes, I can hardly say its worth more than finishing up the nutes I have left and trying something new. I have heard GREAT things about Advanced Nutrients but not much about which are for soil application. Any tips on some good ferts would be also much appreciated. Thanks for checkin out my thread TS, and everybody else. Thanks for your tips and tricks, and any info along the way will be put to good use!

I don't have any pics of Pineapple Kush harvest ( I wish so you could see what Im working with) but I yielded a little less than 4 zips off 3 plants. Clearly a sign of florescent-mylagia lol

 

[TorturedSoul]

I noticed you emphasized training your plants. Does this involve clipping part of the plant? Tying down branches? This is my least knowledgeable area as I always thought plants do better when you avoid stress, e.g. pruning, tying down..) but i know what your saying works because I have seen the results from other growers, just lack the knowledge to do so myself.

Training is... pretty much anything that changes the stature and/or growth patterns of a plant from that which would occur if you left the thing alone. Some folks are big fans of topping plants. Me, not so much. Just about any plant (not sure about sequoias, lol) will branch out if you tie the tip of it so that it is no longer the highest point but instead close to (or at) the lowest point. Light-seeking response. Suggestion: Let a plant get a little bit of height to it so that you can work with it, then tie the tip down as far as you can without snapping the stem. It is often helpful to tie off the bottom of the plant in the opposite direction so that you do not end up pulling it out of the medium. Check the tension on the tie daily; often you will be able to pull it down a little farther. If you can, do this with a clone and leave another clone (from the same mother) alone for comparison. That will show you the differences in growth. Suggestion #2: Use this site's Search function - or do a site-search via Google - for each of these terms (separately): LST, FIM, topping, training. Suggestion #3: Read the thread How to Grow Marijuana Everything You Need to Know as it is an invaluable source of information to the newbies (and non-newbies who might have missed - or forgotten - something).

As for the HPS needing ventilation, do you think a homemade self rigged remedy would suffice?

That rather depends on you, your skillset, and the amount of effort that you are willing to expend, lol.

maybe a small house fan directing outside air onto the light? The smell is not so much the issue here.

Been there, done that. I found that it was a great way to cause the wonderful odors of cannabis to permeate the building. And the yard. And the neighbor's yards. And nearby rooms which had open windows. (By "smell is not so much the issue here" I take it that you live in the middle of several acres of property which no one else ever visits, lol? Or that you are not concerned with passers-by either reporting you, talking to someone who might report you, or deciding to break in at 4am and harvest your grow for you?) But moving air is moving air and a box fan in the doorway of a closet/tent will most likely keep things cool, assuming that the ambient air is cool to begin with.

just want to put a little time between this grow and my last.. The yield was a little bit smaller than expected

Those two statements do not go well together, lol. Usually if you have the latter, the former is "I want to start my next grow ASAP."

Problem with the light though. I got my hands on a bunch of equip. from a guy at work that bailed on his setup.

Another suggestion: Wait a week or so and then go back to the guy crying because your wife (/husband/landlord/etc.) read you the riot act about growing cannabis and you had to cancel your plans & get rid of everything. People talk. Pretty much everyone, unless you rip their tongue out (in which case, they'll write it down). It's like that STD saying about how you don't just have to worry about the people you have sex with, you also have to worry about the people that they have sex with - and the people that they have sex with, and the people that... Change "have sex with" to "talk, brag, complain, narc, et cetera."

Couldn't beat the price but the reflector of the light ( brand new) is not "SEALED" as you put. It is more of a " free hanging" bat wing style light fixture. Would you say this is a bad start?

No. It's not a great reflector design, but (almost) any reflector is better than no reflector (with some exceptions depending on style of growing). It beats half your light hitting the plants and the other half hitting the ceiling, lol. You might be able to rig up some sort of reflector add-ons for the ends which will help somewhat. Probably not a HUGE amount, but when you think about it, you're paying the same amount on your electric bill each month whether you use 90% of your light or 80%, right?

Most importantly, it is a usable reflector and you already own it. If you do not need a "sealed" (air-cooled) reflector than go for it.

Im still a little undecided on what size tent. I know I said 3x3x7 but its seeming like 3x3 might be pushing it towards too small. as long as the 400hps still gives out the same lumens.. it seems like a 4x4 or something might be a little more practical.

A 4'x4' tent is a great place to hang a 600-watt HPS. You could use a 400-watt one but IMO to get full coverage you'd end up raising the light more which would mean that the plants are getting less illumination. It's a judgement call, I guess. I'd go with a nine square foot tent with a 400-watt HPS. Preferably something that is shaped the same way that the footprint of your light is. IOW, if your light casts a rectangular pattern that is twice as wide as it is long then that would be the perfect shape for your grow. But those pesky tent manufacturers don't do custom jobs, lol. Are you planning to stay with a 400-watt light? If so, get a tent, build a box, or use a closet that is no more than 12 square feet at the largest. Ten would be better, IMO. After all, you could light up your backyard with a 400-watt HID to walk around - but you couldn't use it to grow plants in it, lol. Trying to spread your light too much decreases the spot that hits any particular area. Doubling the size of your grow without increasing the light does not give you twice the harvest. Generally, it doesn't even give you an equal harvest (unless you had a fair amount more light than you needed to begin with).

Any tips on some good ferts would be also much appreciated.

In order of recommendation:

1. Blue Planet Nutrients: Check out the various threads in this forum: 420 Sponsors - 420 Magazine - Corey is a great guy, his nutrients are every bit as good as others, he is a sponsor on this site, and he is an active member here so if you journal your grow you can more than likely get input from him as far as suggestions or help with any issues that might occur.
2. General Hydroponics: They've been around for years and have fueled about a bazillion (lol) cannabis grows. GH Flora 3-part is fairly cheap, easy to use (like anything, you need to measure stuff out), and you can pull off a successful harvest with just the base components. You won't find them on the forum but you can generally count on the fact that enough people have used them that you can find help.
3. Any nutrient brand that you see people successfully using in grow journals and that, after sending a polite email to the company flattering them about their products and requesting samples, they actually send you some.

 

[Markers]

I realize this is a little late but the nutes I've used for the last 3 grows worked out much better than when I tried miracle grow. I get them at Lowes for about 5 bucks a pound bag. You can check the results here.
Hey to All,Im New Here, My Closet Setup

 

[StonedyCreek]

thanks bud I checked it out and gotta swing by the store ASAP