Newbie Grower, Carmen Auto x Diva, Outdoors

[CBDMed]

Hi all!
Is this a nutrient question?
One of the Purple Kush autos (everything always from a sponsor) has some blotches on the leaves.
I watered her today and she is a little wilty. I don't know why she is looking wilty. (She has drain holes in her cup.)
I hope the wiltiness will go away by tomorrow, but my main concern is the blotches on her leaves.
(Her sister looks ok.)

Sorry, this one is a little fuzzy, but I think you can the idea.

What should I do?
Thanks.

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi all!
Is this a nutrient question?
One of the Purple Kush autos (everything always from a sponsor) has some blotches on the leaves.
I watered her today and she is a little wilty. I don't know why she is looking wilty. (She has drain holes in her cup.)
I hope the wiltiness will go away by tomorrow, but my main concern is the blotches on her leaves.
(Her sister looks ok.)

Sorry, this one is a little fuzzy, but I think you can the idea.

What should I do?
Thanks.

Looks like bugs to me, sorry.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I was gonna say mag deficiency, but... they look very ready for up potting. Are you going to a 1 gal pot?

 

[cbdhemp808]

I think I understand what you are saying about lateral spread in that they say a tree's root systems generally tend to mirror their canopy (so the roots get almost as wide as the canopy outdoors in soil).
However that said, I have seen plenty of cannabis plants growing in pots with a canopy much wider than the pot!
So I do not know that I could agree that the ability of the roots to spread laterally will limit canopy growth.

OK, I have a couple of main points.

One is that, if a cannabis plant is planted in the ground, in good soil, it will naturally develop a lot of lateral root growth in the top layer of soil... let's say the top 20 inches. Roughly speaking, the lateral root growth may be twice that of the downward root growth (hence, inverted pyramid). To illustrate, consider this amazing reproduction of the cannabis root system...

The measurement of A to B is about twice that of C to D. (Sorry, I can't cite a specific study, or studies, or experts, etc. – this is just a synthesis in my mind of what I have learned along the way.)

So, as I was saying before, it would make sense to accommodate this in the dimensions of a pot, as much as is practically possible. If you're in a 1-5 gal pot, the plant is happy to have any soil, if you know what I mean. If you're in a 15 gal, or 35 gal, or 100 gal, or 300 gal... it makes a lot more sense to accommodate this natural root growth pattern in the pot's dimensions.

My 2nd main point is that, what you are saying is certainly true – the canopy will often extend well beyond the stretch of the lateral roots in the pot; however, this is more true the smaller the pot is, and less true the larger the pot is. In the 300 gal example that we recently saw, the canopy is about at the extent of the pot's edge, or maybe a touch beyond that. Another way to put it is, if you restrict the lateral root growth less, you'll get a wider canopy. The trick is, I think, that in order to see this effect, you first need to get to a minimum pot size, and 5 gal is not that minimum. (I'm talking natural grow, not LST, cropping, topping, SOG, SCROG, whatever.)

I can understand the importance of portability for your constant-harvest setup, and the setup you have seems to make perfect sense.
However, just to comment, since I am growing in batches, there should not be a need to move the pots.

Sounds good. You could favor larger pots then.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Yes, the smaller pots online are mostly tall, whereas the really big pots (30G+) are mostly wide.
But I wonder if that is because that is what is best for the plant, or if a lateral pot seems more desirable because it looks more stable.

Interesting point. If you look at small black plastic nursery pots, they are not specifically intended for cannabis plants. By small I mean 1-5 gal, or up to 10 gal, whatever. If you are looking at big fabric smart pots, the chances are, somebody is going to grow cannabis is those pots.

I don't think the width of the large pots relates to buyers' perception of stability. I'll guess that it's a better width/height ratio for growing cannabis. I happen to have also settled on this – more width than height – in the making of my own pots, after lots of research.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Yes, I was looking for some good studies of side-by-side grows between a tall container versus a wide one, and could not find anything.

neither could I

 

[cbdhemp808]

Sí. The wider base does seem more intuitive and appealing.
And I can see that lateral stability would seem important if growing outdoors (with wind).
Only, I am planning to grow in a closed greenhouse (no wind). So is lateral stability a huge concern?

What I said above... from my point of view, it's not about lateral stability. It's about pot size and the natural growth pattern of the root system.

 

[cbdhemp808]

And it makes sense that people who grow outdoors in wind are also going to want a wider base.

This is not why I chose the dimensions I did for my smart pots, in my outdoor greenhouse grow. I use bamboo stakes to protect the plants from the wind, and to help support branches that are heavy with flowers. I also use green gardening tape to support branches by tying them to the main stem. I use both – bamboo stakes and tying branches to the stem.

 

[CBDMed]

@Emilya

Looks like bugs to me, sorry.

Thank you!!
But eww...
Oy...
What kind of bugs?? The kind where you spray a systemic? Or the kind where you throw away the plant and soak the cup in peroxide solution??

I have been having a lot of tiny white little flies. I was knocking them down with neem oil and soap, but @Azimuth said it tastes bad, so to use only organic dish soap. So I have been doing that, but the white flies are worse, even spraying twice a week. So yesterday I mixed in a whole bunch of neem oil (3-4 Tbsp) to the fertilizer water, so the plants could draw it up systemically. (Now my watering stuff is all covered in neem oil.)

I sprayed down the outside with a local Colombian foliar spray, but I think it is external, an the bugs look internal.

Eucalyptus ………………………………………………………………………… 9.9%
Foliated pine ………………………………………………………… 7.5%
Garlic ………………………………………………………………………………….. 9.8%
Cormin (Cumin?) …………………………………………………………………………… 7.7%
Cinnamon ……………………………………………………………………………. 4.5%
Citronella ………………………………………………………………………… 05.00%
Spearmint ……………………………………………………………………………………….. 7.9%
Nettle ……………………………………………………………………………… 8.8%
Marine algae ……………………………………………………………… 9.9%
Ethyl alcohol ……………………………………………………………… 7.5%
Potassium soap ……………………………………………………………. 9.8%
Neem ………………………………………………………………………………. 8.5%
Potassium salts of fatty acids …………………………. 51%
Conditioners ………………………………………………………. 7.9%
Soluble liquid ……………………………………………………………. 100%


Should I monitor this plant, or destroy her, and get her out of the garden? (I have got lots of seeds.)

 

[CBDMed]

I was gonna say mag deficiency, but... they look very ready for up potting. Are you going to a 1 gal pot?

Well... great question.
I thought to uppot, but @Emilya said no uppoting until she drinks her drink consistently in 1-2 days.
I am still a newbie, and am still trying to figure out what is going on.
Two days ago it was cloudy and cool, so I thought I would be watering her today (not yesterday).
But then yesterday was sunny, and I went to inspect the cups in the morning, and they needed water THEN, so I dropped everything and made fertilizer water with neem oil.

To me it looks like time to uppot, because her leaves are hanging way over the edge of the cup.
I always wonder, if it was indoors under a constant LED, would they draw water more consistently?
My mind could be playing tricks on me, but I am thinking that they draw a lot more water on sunny days, and less on cloudy, so it is hard to judge exactly when she drains her cup in 1-2 days, or when she WOULD drain her cup in 1-2 days, if it was sunny (it is cloudy here maybe 1/2 - 2/3 of the time).

And I have some plastic 1G pots now, and what look to be some plastic 1-1/2g pots.
Only, I was thinking about a 3g cloth pot, since that is what we did last time and it seems to be working out.
What do you think?

 

[CBDMed]

Interesting point. If you look at small black plastic nursery pots, they are not specifically intended for cannabis plants. By small I mean 1-5 gal, or up to 10 gal, whatever. If you are looking at big fabric smart pots, the chances are, somebody is going to grow cannabis is those pots.

Well, right. But that does not speak to whether or not they are ideal.

I don't think the width of the large pots relates to buyers' perception of stability.

Hmmm.... I dunno, they sure repate to MY perception of stability! Haha.
They just look a whole more more stable in wind!
And they just look more stable, sitting there.

I'll guess that it's a better width/height ratio for growing cannabis. I happen to have also settled on this – more width than height – in the making of my own pots, after lots of research.

Yeah, but since there are tall pots and squat pots, it would be good to know what roots want to do IDEALLY, with good watering techniques.
You could also make sure to nurture the spreader roots (would not seem hard to do--you just have to do it).

Too bad @Emilya does not have a giant tall swimming pool full of dirt, and she could do some side-by-side tests for us with big and small pots. (I would be willing to spring for the pots, if Emmie wanted to do it...)

 

[CBDMed]

What I said above... from my point of view, it's not about lateral stability. It's about pot size and the natural growth pattern of the root system.

Yes, I agree it is about what the plant would ideally want best.
It seems hard to know, since not everyone used @Emilya 's watering techniques.
I dunno it Emmie would want to do a side-by-side with a tall pot group and a wide pot group.
If Emilya wants to do the side-by-side, I would spring for any wide pots she needs.
I won't need big wide pots until next spring, but it would be good to know which shape is best.

 

[CBDMed]

This is not why I chose the dimensions I did for my smart pots, in my outdoor greenhouse grow. I use bamboo stakes to protect the plants from the wind, and to help support branches that are heavy with flowers. I also use green gardening tape to support branches by tying them to the main stem. I use both – bamboo stakes and tying branches to the stem.

Wide pots would seem to make a tremendous amout of sense, from many angles.
From a certain angle, they just look good, and give a lot of confidence about stability.
Having a place to stick support stakes would definitely seem a plus!
And it would not be hard to nurture the spreader root system.
(I don't know much about the tap root. And I can understand that you grow clones, which don't necessarily have a tap root, so it is not necessarily an issue for you.)
But I still wonder if Emilya or someone wanted to do a comparative grow, side by side, with tall pots and with wide, with @Emilya 's watering techniques.

 

[Azimuth]

but my main concern is the blotches on her leaves.

Looks like bugs to me, sorry.

I was gonna say mag deficiency, but... they look very ready for up potting

To me, the marks seem too uniform on the outer leaf edges to be bugs which would tend to be random splotches so I would lean to a deficiency. (But, could be a neem deficiency )

I have been having a lot of tiny white little flies. I was knocking them down with neem oil and soap, but @Azimuth said it tastes bad, so to use only organic dish soap

That only applies to plants with flowers. In veg, a good neem spray every 3-4 days is a good preventative practice. Plus, over in India and those parts they use neem as a fertilizer so kind of a two-fer.

 

[CBDMed]

To me, the marks seem too uniform on the outer leaf edges to be bugs which would tend to be random splotches so I would lean to a deficiency. (But, could be a neem deficiency )

Hahahaha, I wanted to add neem to the soil before.
I looked for neem meal, but could not get it here.
But I could order the oil to have it sent here, but I was not sure how to add it.
Is there a better way than adding it through the fertilizer water? Because it makes a big mess, and now I have it all over the leaves...

That only applies to plants with flowers. In veg, a good neem spray every 3-4 days is a good preventative practice.

Ahh, ok. But would it be easier just to add it to the soil somehow, and let the plants take it up?

Plus, over in India and those parts they use neem as a fertilizer so kind of a two-fer.

Yeah, I was kind of hoping someone would grow it for neem meal here, since there are parts of the country with similar climates, but I have not seen it here.
We are looking to move to a cool place, and I think neem wants hot.

Oh, and if it is a deficiency, what kind of a deficiency?? CalMag?
I would be curious as to why, because I am adding Roots Organic CalMag to the water (1Tbl/gal), and I made the SubCool's Supersoil according to the recipe.
I really only add the CalMag because the soil on the top seems to have a calcium deficiency, and I want the spreader roots to have access to CalMag also (in addition to the tap roots), just in case that might make a difference for the plants.
But I was kind of thinking that with normal CalMag plus the calcium and magnesium in the supersoil that CalMag deficiency would not be an issue.
Maybe I am wrong?

Is it possibly a lockout from using supersoil and CalMag at the same time?
(I am not even sure how lockout works, but I know there is such a thing.)
How would I proceed to test?

I will be watching for it, but I have not seen this issue on any of the other plants.
(At least since I started using the Roots CalMag...)

 

[Azimuth]

wanted to add neem to the soil before.
I looked for neem meal, but could not get it here.
But I could order the oil to have it sent here, but I was not sure how to add it.
Is there a better way than adding it through the fertilizer water? Because it makes a big mess, and now I have it all over the leaves...

Neem meal is the stuff left over after they press out the oil so the oil should be more potent. Oil and water don't mix I'm told so I'm not sure how you'd apply it that way. Maybe a bit of aloe could help? Don't really know.

Ahh, ok. But would it be easier just to add it to the soil somehow, and let the plants take it up?

That's how I do it. I add the meal to my potting mix.

Is it possibly a lockout from using supersoil and CalMag at the same time?

Totally possible. If you followed a recipe, your supersoil shouldn't need anything added to it period. Once you start monkeying around with a tried and true mix you're kinda on your own and lockouts can certainly happen.

Plants are pretty good at taking up what they need for nutrients in an organic grow assuming what they need is present in the amounts needed and the microbes have had sufficient time to start breaking down the material. That's one of the reasons the supersoils should cook a while before use. Not everything is readily available on day 1 after you mix it.

 

[CBDMed]

Neem meal is the stuff left over after they press out the oil so the oil should be more potent.

Sí.

Oil and water don't mix I'm told so I'm not sure how you'd apply it that way. Maybe a bit of aloe could help? Don't really know.

Good idea about the aloe, thanks!
I have a confession to make. I have been trying to follow Emilya's routine as much as is practical, but by the time you've got a 4/5 cut and LST training hoops going out to the rim, it gets harder to follow Em's watering routine, because the canopy starts blocking the access.
This is from last week, and it is harder to get in there now than last week.

But there are 3-4 places where you can kind of take a cup and slosh a small irrigation flood in, and then let it soak down. And then after it finally ran off I took the turkey baster to put the liquid to the outsides, but it was already pretty well evenly loaded up.
So I am sure that is probably wrong, but I just took a cup and tried to get some of the oil in the cup along with the bloom liquid, and then just sloshed it in, and hope they take it up.
I just checked upstairs, and there are no white flies.

That's how I do it. I add the meal to my potting mix.

Yes, that is how I would like to do it.
I will just have to get creative about adding it to the soils.

Totally possible. If you followed a recipe, your supersoil shouldn't need anything added to it period. Once you start monkeying around with a tried and true mix you're kinda on your own and lockouts can certainly happen.

Ok.
I just don't understand why that one Purple Kush Auto shows deficiency signs, and everyone else looks happy and thriving (except the Eleven Roses Autos, but that is a separate question).

Plants are pretty good at taking up what they need for nutrients in an organic grow assuming what they need is present in the amounts needed and the microbes have had sufficient time to start breaking down the material.

Siiiii..... it is like teenagers raiding the fridge!
They pretty well know how to gather what they want and leave the rest, haha.

That's one of the reasons the supersoils should cook a while before use. Not everything is readily available on day 1 after you mix it.

Siiii..... I understand that they need to cook 2-3 months, until they are thermally cold.
I just hope I can find a source for neem meal locally, to ward of all kinds of insects systemically.

 

[cbdhemp808]

To me it looks like time to uppot, because her leaves are hanging way over the edge of the cup.
I always wonder, if it was indoors under a constant LED, would they draw water more consistently?
My mind could be playing tricks on me, but I am thinking that they draw a lot more water on sunny days, and less on cloudy, so it is hard to judge exactly when she drains her cup in 1-2 days, or when she WOULD drain her cup in 1-2 days, if it was sunny (it is cloudy here maybe 1/2 - 2/3 of the time).

I think you're over-thinking it, brother. Just take a look at the plant... does it seem happy in that dixie solo cup? Does that cup look like the right size for that plant?

And I have some plastic 1G pots now, and what look to be some plastic 1-1/2g pots.
Only, I was thinking about a 3g cloth pot, since that is what we did last time and it seems to be working out.
What do you think?

I'd say up pot to 1 gal. My ideal sequence for seedlings is: 2" square sprouting pot, to 1 gal, then to final size (5g, 6g, or 15g). My ideal for clones is almost the same, except they start in 3" round pots (the cuttings that is). In each case, the initial growing medium is specialized, and then starting with 1 gal is my usual custom soil+coir grow mix. (I just up potted last night 3 plants that were each over 2 ft tall in 1 gal pots... they looked fabulous and were'nt very root bound. I up potted 2 of them to 5 gal pots, and one to a 6.5 gal pot.)

Don't over-think the soil, either... just provide a well-balanced mix, with all the right nutrients/minerals, worm castings, and correct pH from the get go. Water the container well and let it dry out, repeat. Sit back and watch the magic.

 

[CBDMed]

I got time to look up that link on quadlining. That was interesting!
Does his advice to strip the smaller branches apply to autos as well?

 

[CBDMed]

I think you're over-thinking it, brother.

Well, I had a head injury, and a lot of things I have to learn how to do over, so that is probably a given, FYI (haha).
I am also mildly autistic, so we tend to get fixated on things, and have to have an answer before we can move ahead, so I just try to focus on the basics, and learn the basics as well as I can. So far that is a coping strategy that has worked well for me.
But @Emilya has a specific watering plan I have been trying to follow. It has helped me a lot. But now I am having a hard time following it, because I don't know that it was written with LST and training hoops in mind, but Emmers has helped me a lot, so I try to check in with her (because, she has a scientific mindset, and she wins prizes and stuff).

Just take a look at the plant... does it seem happy in that dixie solo cup? Does that cup look like the right size for that plant?

Yeah, and I would go that way also, but both Emmie and @Azimuth said not to go by eyeball, but to go by watering schedule.
But I am sure the plants draw more water on a sunny day, than on a cloudy day, and it can change here a lot, so it is hard to judge.

I'd say up pot to 1 gal.

I was thinking 3g smartpot and leave it, because she is an auto and is going into flowering, so she has maybe 4-6 weeks left.

My ideal sequence for seedlings is: 2" square sprouting pot, to 1 gal, then to final size (5g, 6g, or 15g).

Yes, and hopefully when I can get to a place where I can grow photoperiod regulars, I will try to do something similar! But for right now I am stuck with this nightlight situation, so I am stuck with autos, so I am trying to learn as much as I can from the quick cycle.

My ideal for clones is almost the same, except they start in 3" round pots (the cuttings that is). In each case, the initial growing medium is specialized, and then starting with 1 gal is my usual custom soil+coir grow mix. (I just up potted last night 3 plants that were each over 2 ft tall in 1 gal pots... they looked fabulous and were'nt very root bound. I up potted 2 of them to 5 gal pots, and one to a 6.5 gal pot.)

Sounds good!

Don't over-think the soil, either... just provide a well-balanced mix, with all the right nutrients/minerals, worm castings, and correct pH from the get go. Water the container well and let it dry out, repeat. Sit back and watch the magic.

Well, we are hoping for an auto-sustaining eco farm thingy. And when we get there I will want to be learning all sorts of fermented fertilizer things from Azimuth, but right now I am just trying to follow Emilya's watering routine, trying to do it the best I can.
I had a real problem finding decent organic potting soil with nutes when I got here. I had used Subcool's Supersoil before, so when I found components for that I landed on them with all fours.
Now I know where to get compost and things for cheap, but back then I did not know.
I finally found some good soil to make SubCool's and also for the upper layer, but it seems it has a CalMag deficiency.
For right now I am adding liquid organic calmag.
When we get to our destination we will do what the locals recommend, and throw all of our kitchen and farm waste into a hole, and let the worms go at it, and plant in that with rice hulls. It is all super cheap, and super good. And just throw your egg shells in there. And learn lots of things from Azimuth and Emilya about the Rev's organic teas.
I have to run. Dinner.
Talk later.