Need Organic Nute Suggestions

[Why Doe]

Wanting to switch from my noob synthetic fox farm nutes and go organic. I have a lot of microbal products and have been told synthetic nutes will kill the beneficial bacteria? I need the base nutes grow-flower

 

[Scientific]

I have a lot of microbal products and have been told synthetic nutes will kill the beneficial bacteria?

You put a question mark at the end so I'll answer the implied question. "Synthetic nutes"-- for example mineral salts like potassium nitrate--are far from toxic to beneficial bacteria. Beneficial bacteria thrive on them. They are nutrients for beneficial bacteria. Add some "synthetic" nutes to your backyard compost pile and watch it heat up and start to steam and even smoke as the beneficial bacterial devour them.

I get the appeal of organic gardening and understand how people want to form an emotional bond with the plants they consume, but I can tell you as someone who has done the coursework and cultured the bugs, bacteria are not fussy about what they eat, and neither are plants.

 

[Why Doe]

Well I guess my question should have been what kills microbes and beneficial bacteria. I know chlorine does and I'm working on something for that as well as I use tap water. But if my sythentic fox farm nutes won't kill all these products that I have and am getting that's good news me!

 

[Scientific]

Personally, I think we may have been getting a little too excited about the benefits of beneficial bacteria lately. We always lookin' fo' da majik...

 

[Why Doe]

I've had great results with recharge, started using hormex which is great, and I got great white mycorrhizae on the way, and I know there are other great things out there. For the next grow I will be mixing in a mykos and azos, too late for this grow. I know you are a simple grower but I think you need to open your heart there's always something to learn and for me I know there's something better out there, a better way of growing and I think I'm going in the right direction. I haven't achieved my greatest potential yet, but I'll let you know when I get there

 

[Scientific]

My heart is open, but my mind is working.

People often get upset when confronted with critical thinking, confusing critical thinking with criticism or with close-mindedness.

When you say you've had "great results" with something, I assume that you're saying that you used it and your plants grew well. That's great! I'm glad.

But long experience has shown that the only way to say with certainty that one thing is better than another is to carefully test them both under identical circumstances. And of course the gold standard of testing is to "blind" the test so that no one knows which is which, and the absolute ideal is to double blind, so that neither the researcher nor the person being tested knows. The reason for that is that emotion has a powerful and insidious way of sneaking in and subtly and imperceptibly affecting results, even among people who should know better and who have the best of intentions.

It's not that I'm a "simple grower." I am fascinated by all aspects of biology and botany and horticulture and am happy to use anything that enhances results. But in the course of a long and varied career I have worked in and around marketers and advertisers whose only job it is is to manipulate the emotions of buyers to increase sales. For example, I worked at an instrument company that had a complete psychographic analysis of their customer base--there hopes, fears, desires and even their religious beliefs and the cars they drove. It was fascinating reading. It also really guided the way the company presented its products.

For that reason, it's no wonder that the people who sell fertilizer to cannabis growers pay to create colorful, sexy, visually pleasing graphics to go on the bottles and give the products exotic, interesting, and appealing names. They know who they're selling to and what those people value often better than the people know themselves.

I'm not trying to throw a turd in the punchbowl when I question the latest whatever that people are excited about. I'm just trying to remind them to think critically so they don't waste their time and effort and gullibley hand over their hard-earned money for products that don't actually give demonstrably better results.

I wish you good luck, happy growing, and thriving beneficial bacteria.

 

[Why Doe]

I know what marketing is lol, and I don't fall for it. But when a product has 300+ 5 star reviews about people using it and seeing the benefits both here and on amazon. You better believe I'm gonna try it. I have a test bottle of mammoth p that a very generous member on here is sending me, I will be using that along with other things and I fully expect to see better results. I know dumb marketing schemes when I see them

 

[Scientific]

I know dumb marketing schemes when I see them

They're not all dumb. A lot of marketing is pretty clever. And subtle.

I read and use reviews too, and agree that if hundreds of people love something, chances are it has merit. But again, there's really no way to say for sure that something's working without doing a careful comparison. That's just the inescapable fact of the matter. I used HydroGuard in my hydroponic reservoir because it has a great rep and I got great results. But was the $24 (!) that I spent for the stuff justified? I can't say without running two reservoirs with and without side by side.

What actually brought me back to my keyboard was remembering that back when I had a big yard with a giant compost pile, my botanist girlfriend suggested that I add beneficial bacteria ("compost starter") to the pile to get it to break down faster. In that case the A/B test was just before and after: the pile got hot after I added the stuff. But on doing further reading on the matter (trying to learn how to make it work even better ), I learned that a great way to enhance the action of the bacteria was to add nitrate fertilizer because the bacteria were using up all the nitrogen in the compost as they broke it down.

So I guess that's another point, lots of times--hell, most of the time--biological systems are complicated, and if you goose something at one end it affects something you hadn't anticipated at the other end.

The point of all this is to think carefully and critically, but of course that kinda runs counter to the culture we're immersed in here...

 

[Why Doe]

Do you grow organically?

 

[Applesauce]

I would suggest to take a look at Doc Buds High Brix threads here on the mag. It's a little different than the standard bloom and flower nutes, but in my opinion much simpler than the Fox Farm line I started on and the results have been far superior. I grew 3 strains in FF a couple times and their clones in the DBHBB kit and its amazing how much better they turned out and how much easier it was throughout the grow. The flavor and aroma were much more intense, the frost had almost doubled, rosin yields increased, the high was much more intense.. Took some good buds and turned them into great buds!

 

[Scientific]

Do you grow organically?

No. So should I just shut and go away? (I only jumped on the thread originally to comment on the notion that "synthetic" nutes might somehow be toxic to soil bacteria.)

I live in a small place in the middle of the city now, so potting sheds and compost piles and manure and such like are all a thing of the past, I'm afraid. If I could, I would love to work up some super soil in big beds. As it is, I have three bottles FloraSeries fertilizer under the sink in the kitchen and buy potting soil one cubic foot at a time at the home center.

 

[Why Doe]

Just a question, but you don't need all that to grow organically lol. I too live in the middle of the city in an apartment, the soil I bought is organic, "black gold" so I mise well continue down the path! All the things I have bought and are continuing to buy are organic. I'm just trying my best to make my plants as happy as possible!

 

[Scientific]

> you don't need all that to grow organically
Yeah, you're right. I guess I got spoiled back when I had lots of space and a rototiller...

> I'm just trying my best to make my plants as happy as possible!

 

[Conradino23]

I'll quote this:

Impact of Organic and Inorganic Fertilizers on Microbial Populations and Biomass Carbon in Paddy Field Soil

A field experiment was conducted to examine the microbial populations and microbial biomass carbon under organic and inorganic farming practices in paddy (variety IR-64) fields. The organic fertilizer used was a mixture of farmyard manure, rock phosphate and neem cake, while on the other hand for inorganic fertilizer, a mixture of urea, single super phosphate and muriate of potash was used. Microbial population counts were analysed from samples collected from the surface (0-15 cm) and sub-surface (15-30 cm) soil depths of the treated plots by soil plate and dilution plate methods for fungi and bacteria, respectively. Results obtained showed that the organically treated plot recorded the maximum microbial population counts (fungal and bacterial) and microbial biomass carbon, followed by the inorganically treated plot and control. A significant variation in fungal population was found between control and treated plots (organic and inorganic) at the surface soil depth, whereas at the sub-surface soil depth it was between all the plots (Tukey’s test at p≤0.05). Organic plot exhibited a significant variation in bacterial population (both the soil depths) with the inorganically treated plot and control (Tukey’s test at p≤0.05). Organic carbon showed significant positive correlation with fungal and bacterial populations (p≤0.05). The application of organic fertilizers increased the organic carbon content of the soil and thereby increasing the microbial counts and microbial biomass carbon. The use of inorganic fertilizers resulted in low organic carbon content, microbial counts and microbial biomass carbon of the soil, although it increased the soil’s NPK level which could be explained by the rates of fertilizers being applied.

So there you have it. No, using synthetic fertilisers in low concentrations won't kill bacterial population... but when you use them in high doses you're gonna lower its mass and growth significantly and when you keep applying them over and over again without keeping soil carbon in check you're gonna effectively sterilise your soil. The problem is that NOBODY in modern agriculture uses them strategically (or in small amounts to target certain deficiencies), everybody uses amounts that are way too high and that includes cannabis growers.

 

[Scientific]

Thanks for that. I have some questions and concerns about the article and their and your conclusions (e.g. "you're gonna effectively sterilise your soil"), but I think it gives some useful information.

> he problem is that NOBODY in modern agriculture uses them strategically (or in small amounts to target certain deficiencies), everybody uses amounts that are way too high and that includes cannabis growers.

I suspect that the giant agribusiness farming their 100,000 acres wants the simplest, cheapest, solution that gives maximum short-term return on investment. They're not thinking of developing the soil, they're thinking of hitting their production target in the third quarter of this fiscal year.

At a more practical level (looking ahead to Q3 of this fiscal year... ), for the average grower, does all the extra work and effort produce a demonstrably better plant? Remember that you can grow a huge, healthy, delicious plant with just N, P, K + micros added to a bucket of RO water.

 

[Why Doe]

Thanks for that. I have some questions and concerns about the article and their and your conclusions (e.g. "you're gonna effectively sterilise your soil"), but I think it gives some useful information.

> he problem is that NOBODY in modern agriculture uses them strategically (or in small amounts to target certain deficiencies), everybody uses amounts that are way too high and that includes cannabis growers.

I suspect that the giant agribusiness farming their 100,000 acres wants the simplest, cheapest, solution that gives maximum short-term return on investment. They're not thinking of developing the soil, they're thinking of hitting their production target in the third quarter of this fiscal year.

At a more practical level (looking ahead to Q3 of this fiscal year... ), for the average grower, does all the extra work and effort produce a demonstrably better plant? Remember that you can grow a huge, healthy, delicious plant with just N, P, K + micros added to a bucket of RO water.

One of the products that I will be using for next grow either mykos or azos is used in growing those world record 200lb pumpkins if that tells you anything. The beneficial bacteria and microbes have really caught my interest. I have a product coming in called great white which some people say they got 40% bigger plants when using it. I'll defiantly let you know either way

 

[Scientific]

> One of the products that I will be using for next grow either mykos or azos is used in growing those world record 200lb pumpkin if that tells you anything.

What that tells me, mainly, is that the grower of the 200 pound pumpkin is using seeds that have been carefully selected over many generations to produce giant pumpkins. (Yes, you also have to provide those giant pumpkins with ideal growing conditions, and that ain't easy. Here in the cool, rainy coastal Northwest, my giant pumpkins always failed because of downy mildew--non-beneficial microorganisms --on the leaves. Someday I wanna grow 'em in a greenhouse or at least under plastic sheeting that keeps 'em dry and see if I do better...)

> they got 40% bigger plants when using it.

Which begs the question (I can just here one of the research professors in the lab asking) "40% bigger than what? Please do let us know, but please grow five plants with and five plants without under otherwise identical conditions. Then you'll have something like actual proof.

I'm sorry to sound like such a noodge, really, but I spent may years working in research labs in which any claim had to be objectively proven in order to earn more grant money or keep the corporate overlords happy. It's easy to make claims and easy to come up with imaginative hypotheses, but actually proving that your product or idea has value is much harder because there are so many variable that could otherwise explain a given result.

But by all means, the best of luck to you--big, dense buds, dense trichomes, and a 200-pound harvest.

 

[Mj76]

I really enjoyed reading this thread. But let's bring it back around. I use Earth Juice and Bush Doctor. Very happy with both, won't be experimenting with anything else anytime soon. My current innoculant is Photosynthesis + by Microbe Life. That stuff's amazing. Unbelievable overnight growth spurts.
I agree you don't need a ton of space. Some good organic soil and bottled organic nutes produces outstanding herb in my opinion.
Regarding synthetic nutes and microbes: sometimes you need to go outside our community to get a straight answer. I read a short article by A U of Texas Agriculture Prof. He basically said you would need to INCINERATE the soil to achieve the type of sterilization the anti-synthetic crowd was claiming. That cleared a lot up for me. I still went with organic growing but I foliar with synthetics. My little secret!

 

[Why Doe]

I really enjoyed reading this thread. But let's bring it back around. I use Earth Juice and Bush Doctor. Very happy with both, won't be experimenting with anything else anytime soon. My current innoculant is Photosynthesis + by Microbe Life. That stuff's amazing. Unbelievable overnight growth spurts.
I agree you don't need a ton of space. Some good organic soil and bottled organic nutes produces outstanding herb in my opinion.
Regarding synthetic nutes and microbes: sometimes you need to go outside our community to get a straight answer. I read a short article by A U of Texas Agriculture Prof. He basically said you would need to INCINERATE the soil to achieve the type of sterilization the anti-synthetic crowd was claiming. That cleared a lot up for me. I still went with organic growing but I foliar with synthetics. My little secret!

Thanks for that! Yes I have photo + coming in as well and I can't wait!

 

[Conradino23]

At a more practical level (looking ahead to Q3 of this fiscal year... ), for the average grower, does all the extra work and effort produce a demonstrably better plant? Remember that you can grow a huge, healthy, delicious plant with just N, P, K + micros added to a bucket of RO water.

I really doubt that... when plants need about 63 different nutrients to live a happy life, but you can definitely grow something passable applying NPK knowledge to the plantand RO water, however you're looking at a lot of problems along the way.