Need custom organic soil advice for outdoor pots

CBDMed

CBDMed

Well-Known Member
Hi all. I am new here at 420, and hope I am posting right. If I am in the wrong section, please just redirect me.
I have grown a few times back in the US, but now I am in rural Colombia (long story), and I am having a hard time finding pre-prepared soil (like I am used to), and all the ingredients. I need some sage experienced soil advice for my first grow here. I would like to grow natural in soil if I can, but it pretty much has to be "mix it yourself" ('cuz I can't find everything the same way here as in the US).

I found "black soil" at the local hardware store. (It looks pretty good. Two dudes go out and shovel dirt into bags for you, haha.) Then I found perlite, coco coir, worm castings, and some rock dust online (no idea what kind). Then I found rice hulls in a local nursery (for silica). I am also collecting egg shells (for calcium), drying them, and grinding them to dust with a coffee mill. Only, I have no real idea what ratios to use for best results.

Should I try maybe 45% black soil and then cut it with 20% worm castings, and use 10% perlite, 10% coco coir, and 10% rice hulls, and then put in a little egg shell dust and rock dust, and then check the pH? But how much egg shell calcium is the right amount? And how much rock dust?

I could not find elemental sulfur, so if the soil pH tests high, can I bring it down with coffee grounds? And can I just throw unused coffee grounds in (since I don't drink coffee), or should it be spent coffee grounds? Also, I read that you can water with banana peel tea for the roots (so I will try that). (And if I can find some seaweed anywhere, I will try to throw that in also.)

Does anyone have any advice? Or would anyone adjust the formula? Many thanks in advance. I am really hoping for a successful organic grow, but I am not sure what ratios to use. Cannabis really helps my autism (a lot). Thanks.
 
Welcome to the forums El g. :welcome: Sounds like you have an interesting DIY soil project going there.

The perlite percent is going to depend on how heavy your "black soil" is. I use the "Coot's Mix" which calls for equal parts of CSPM, perlite, and compost, and then a bunch of amendments (neem meal, karanja cake, kelp meal, crustacean meal, rock dust, etc.)

For the compost third I did equal parts of aged leaf mold, garden compost and red worm castings. That mix is still a bit heavy to me and I probably could have gone with half perlite and a quarter each of the other two. So you'll have to play around with the ratios a bit depending on how heavy your base is.

@bobrown14 could probably give you better advice on the various other inputs you listed. I just went with his recipe to start.

Is that "black soil" like the stuff from the Amazon Rain Forest with the biochar in it (Terra Preta)? If so, that's supposed to be some really great stuff. I added biochar to my mix above to try to emulate it a bit. The biochar is supposed to provide a great habitat for the microbes but it has to primed first or it will act like a filter for your nutes, sucking them up and storing them for later and leaving your plants with deficiencies initially.

Easy enough to charge the stuff up though. I just soak it in some worm casting tea for a week or so before mixing it in.
 
el gringuito said:
Also, I read that you can water with banana peel tea for the roots (so I will try that). (And if I can find some seaweed anywhere, I will try to throw that in also.)

Does anyone have any advice? Or would anyone adjust the formula? Many thanks in advance. I am really hoping for a successful organic grow, but I am not sure what ratios to use. Cannabis really helps my autism (a lot). Thanks.
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Also, a few of us (@NuttyProfessor @Bode ) are experimenting with various organic inputs, mostly using the Korean Natural Farming or Jadam processes for using plant extracts so that might be something for you to explore, especially if you don't have easy access to the "traditional" growing inputs.
 
el gringuito said:
Or would anyone adjust the formula?
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You could try the basic Holy Trinity of soil mixing; 1/3 compost including the worm castings, 1/3 Perlite (or Perlite and Rice Hulls mixed together) and 1/3 finely shredded Coco Coir (or a Coco Coir and Peat Moss mix).

As for the egg shells, it takes a long time for the microbes to break those down so they are a slow-release calcium source. I throw my crushed egg shells over the vegetable garden and let nature figure it out. For my 'grow' soil I generally use the calcium that is found in the other amendments I add at the beginning or along the way.

They should be 'spent' or already used coffee grounds. The fresh or unused grounds are very acidic. The 'used' or 'spent' grounds are much less acidic and the brewing process makes the Nitrogen available.

The banana peel tea might not do much. Might be better off putting the peels into a bucket with water and just letting them rot there for awhile and using that as a tea to see if it works. In my garden I put the banana peels, coffee grounds, and other vegetable scraps into holes and cover them. The decomposition takes place out of sight. I can use the enhanced garden soil as part of the compost & wormcastings portion the next time I make a batch of soil mix.

Not sure when or if there would be enough of a pH problem at all. For the most part the soil mix will work the pH as it needs.
 
I do a compost pile and add all those things (banana peels, woodstove ashes, coffee grounds, egg shells) plus grass clippings. I spread this in the spring. Next I use JADAM's microbe solution weekly like clockwork to keep adding microbes to the soil. with all those nutrients, and microbes, things can't help but grow as good as I'd like!! Oh, and I add organic things (bloodmeal, espoma ferts) to soil to enhance the stage they're in, or if showing a deficiency.
 
Hi Azimuth! Thanks for the nice welcome. This looks like it is going to be a great website forum.

The soil looks pretty rich, and dark chocolate-y, but maybe a bit heavy, with some clumps of clay. At first I thought it was river bottom soil, but I asked and was told that it is just soil from the colder regions (where they said that the soil runs black). (So maybe they scraped the topsoil before they did a building project?? Haha.)

I get the sense from your and SmokingWings' posts that I really want to open the soil up a lot, with a lot of fluffy, airy amendments. Does that seem right? (Make a nice fluffy mix that holds moisture and lots of compost?)

Along that line (of opening up the soil), I am not sure if I can find CSPM, but I can find coco coir, rice hulls, and perlite. So would I just mix them 1/3, 1/3, and 1/3, and then use enough so that the soil is nice and fluffy--and then just add maybe 20% (worm) compost, and whatever else I can find?

Thanks very much for your help! I am hoping I can find more nutes and things as I go, but it will be great to get this grow started, so I can get some medicine for my autism. Thank you again!
 
Azimuth, thank you very much! I will try to check out biochar, and also Korean Natural Farming and Jadam. (I have a lot of reading to do!). I really appreciate you guys' help in getting me jump-started! This looks like a busy few weeks, and I would not otherwise be able to get started...
 
SmokingWings, thank you very much! That is extremely helpful. It gives me a good basic big picture to get started with.

But, may I please ask you? From my (uneducated) point of view, I understand the role of the worm castings and other nutrients in feeding and nourishing the plants. Only, if I understand correctly (and I may not), aren't the Perlite, the coco coir, and also the CSPM (if I can find it) relatively "nutrient neutral"? And the rice hulls are basically "nutrient neutral" except for a little silica? So... don't they serve mainly to open up the soil, and help it to drain, and then all but the Perlite (the rice hulls, the coco coir, and the CPSM) also help to retain moisture? Umm... but if that is true, then could one pretty much look at them as a "foil" for the compost and the other nutrients?

Umm.... and if that is true, then what is the role of soil, in your view? (Umm... can soil be considered "optional"??? My mind is bending...). (Oy va voi... is soil not really considered desirable???)

About the egg shells, thank you very much. I read an article about creating organic cal-mag with crushed egg shells and vinegar or lemon juice. I was hoping to avoid the extra steps, but if the plants cannot access the calcium without first breaking it down, then I should probably make the effort.

I will brew the coffee grounds, and ferment the banana peels. Eventually I hope to get a piece of ground, and then I can ferment in soil. I appreciate the advice that pH will probably not be a problem.

Thanks for the advice! It will be great to get started this week.
 
Bode, thanks for the good ideas. I have a couple of tumbler-composters coming, and I hope to get to a piece of ground someday soon, where I can start a proper compost pile (which I will load up with egg shells and banana peels).

I might could do a worm compost bin for the eggshells and banana peels, but I am not sure how much work it is. I am told that worms eat eggshells...
 
el gringuito said:
I get the sense from your and SmokingWings' posts that I really want to open the soil up a lot, with a lot of fluffy, airy amendments. Does that seem right? (Make a nice fluffy mix that holds moisture and lots of compost?)

Along that line (of opening up the soil), I am not sure if I can find CSPM, but I can find coco coir, rice hulls, and perlite. So would I just mix them 1/3, 1/3, and 1/3, and then use enough so that the soil is nice and fluffy--and then just add maybe 20% (worm) compost, and whatever else I can find?
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The soil provides structure for the roots to hold onto. In an organic grow it also provides a home for the microbeasties that breakdown the amendments you add to get them in a format that the plants can use. Then, the plant sends a signal to the microbes indicating what it needs for nutrition and rewards the microbes with a bit of food for their help.

So, for an organic grow, it's very important to have a soil that has good structure, meaning not too dense so that excess water can drain, but also one that will hold enough water for the plant. Definitely a balancing act. Then you want to add amendments that will feed the plant over its life, which, for an organic grow means larger pot sizes, like 7-10 gal minimum. I grow in a small cabinet so in order to grow organically I have to make some adjustments.

The coco portion is great at providing both a nice airy structure as well as moisture retention as it can hold many times its weight in water. The CSPM, on the other hand, can be quite a challenge to rehydrate once it gets really dry and I am moving away from that over to aged leaf mold for that portion of the mix.

There are various "soil recipies" that really should be followed closely, at least until you have a good understanding as to what each ingredient brings to the mix. Substitutions can really throw things out of whack.

Still, you need to get started so I would say do you best you can with what you have and keep good notes to improve your future grows.

A really good place to start learning about growing organically is through a book called "True Living Organics" by The Rev. @StoneOtter , and many others, are accomplished students of his style and have grown quite impressive plants. Still, it's a bit of a learning curve and a whole bunch of amendments to get up and running. But very good background on all aspect of a cannabis grow.

el gringuito said:
I will try to check out biochar, and also Korean Natural Farming and Jadam. (I have a lot of reading to do!).
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The first post in my "Alchemy" thread in my signature will give you a good background to get started. From there it follows a bunch of experiments I do as I try to incorporate these principles in my grow.

el gringuito said:
aren't the Perlite, the coco coir, and also the CSPM (if I can find it) relatively "nutrient neutral"? And the rice hulls are basically "nutrient neutral" except for a little silica? So... don't they serve mainly to open up the soil, and help it to drain, and then all but the Perlite (the rice hulls, the coco coir, and the CPSM) also help to retain moisture?
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Yes, that's why you also need to add nutrients in the form of amendments and also microbes to complete the loop. With chemical fertilizers they come in a form readily available to the plant.

One alternative that I'm about to try are the Geoflora organic nutes. They say you can run an entire grow with just top dressing every two weeks, and they work in various mediums including coco. @StoneOtter is living proof that you can grow some pretty huge plants with just that. You'll find them on the Sponsor's page. There are a bunch of recent threads dedicated to a comparative grow that many here participated in that highlighted this nute (among others) using the Girl Scout Cookies strain.

That's probably the easiest way for you to get started if they'll ship to your country. A basic soil mix, a measured amount of Grow or Bloom every two weeks and that's it! Except for pests. But that's a whole other issue...

el gringuito said:
I might could do a worm compost bin for the eggshells
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Mine is a stacked series of 7 gallon (I think) totes with holes in the bottom of each. When the top one gets filled with kitchen trimmings and things, I harvest the bottom bin and then put it on top and rinse and repeat. But worms don't have a very big mouth so they won't be breaking those down. Probably best to use an herb grinder to make them into a powder and feed that to the worms.
 
I guess you're missing some information, EG. 2 types of soil. One is promix, perlite and/or equivalents have no nutrient value. They have to be fed with processed nutrients. Organic soil has the nutrients on board and need microbes to change the organic soil into what plants want. big differences. Happy Smokin'
 
Azimuth, thank you. That was very helpful. The grow space is kind of interesting. I live in a closed community, and the community guard recommended that I use the rooftop (and here it is pretty much best to do what they suggest). Only, we have some pretty strong security lights that stay on all night, which will probably disrupt the photoperiod dark cycle (like a 12 hour Gas Lantern Routine... oy). So, right now I plan to run 15 autos, plus also three photoperiod girls that I will have to put in the rooftop bathroom for 14 hours each day, so they will flower.

I am going with 5 gallon buckets for the autos (which could be overkill), but I read somewhere that while 3g was fine for the older autos (lowrider, etc.), the more recent strains can benefit from bigger buckets. They said that autos will start to flower when their roots reach the bottom of the bucket, so with the more recent, more vigorous strains you can get much larger plants and more yield if you go with a 5g cloth pot.

I only have 7g cloth pots for the photoperiods, but I really cannot let them get too big anyway, because the closet is limited in size, so 7g will probably work.

I appreciate your advice. The only two organic soils I have run have been Subcool's Super Soil and Clackamas Coot's, and both worked great. I really liked the idea of a layer of "supersoil" on the bottom of the bucket, even though I have no way to duplicate the nutrients here. I found a 1 kilogram bag of "Organic Fertilizer" at the local nursery today for $4 and was going to buy it (for diversity's sake), but the sales lady steered me away from that to a similar-sized 1kg bag of worm compost for $1. It seems important to build relationships here, so I bought the worm compost and said, "Thank you very much"--so I don't have much variety at the moment (just worm compost). Thankfully, vermicompost is pretty good stuff--but is a base layer of straight worm compost basically just a bad idea?

I checked Amazon for Geoflora Organic, and it looks great, but the cheapest shipping was $370 for a four pound bag (which is kind of beyond my budget). I hope I can find more sources in the future, at least maybe some composted kitchen waste, and maybe composted cow or chicken manure, but at the moment things look pretty limited.

The links on your signature block look great. I will try to work my way through them after I get past the next few weeks.
 
Bode, thank you. I was able to splurge on some beneficial microbes (love those). I am rotting some banana peels right now, and we hope to brew up the coffee tomorrow. When I get some time (before the next grow for sure) I will have to scour the internet to see what else I can find to throw into the mix.

Someone said that very dilute aspirin (like a half a tablet in a gallon of water) helps roots grow. Is that not considered organic? (I heard that aspirin is originally derived from willow tree bark.) Or are there any other natural things that could work (i.e., that I can find here)?
 
The vermicompost is a very good idea but it won't offer enough nutrients by itself to fully power the grow. That's why you'll need to find a way to add some nutrients to it. Maybe look into accumulator plants local to you. You've grown with the Coot's and Subcool's mixes so you have a decent background and know generally what you need.
 
Ok, thank you, Azimuth. I think I am getting a picture. I will have to research some agriculture supply houses, and see what I can find. There should be a way to buy at least some elementals here. Thank you.
 
el gringuito said:
Only, if I understand correctly (and I may not), aren't the Perlite, the coco coir, and also the CSPM (if I can find it) relatively "nutrient neutral"? And the rice hulls are basically "nutrient neutral" except for a little silica? So... don't they serve mainly to open up the soil, and help it to drain, and then all but the Perlite (the rice hulls, the coco coir, and the CPSM) also help to retain moisture?
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The Perlite is a type of volcanic stone; molten lava flowing into the ocean and almost instantly creating a violent reaction as the water boils. Small air pockets are created and the stone is very lightweight. Perlite is now made commercially by super heating stone and melting it before introducing the water.

The Rice Hulls, Coco Coir and the Peat Moss can be considered 'nutrient neutral' but they are organic materials and will decompose releasing some nutrients into the soil. Peat Moss seems to decompose in 2 to 4 years, maybe a bit faster. The Coco Coir can take several years and take up to 20 years if left in large with no attempt being made to deliberately compost the material. I have not used Rice Hulls nor done any extensive reading on the product but I figure a couple of years to decompose.

So, yes, nutrient neutral but only for awhile.

el gringuito said:
About the egg shells, thank you very much. I read an article about creating organic cal-mag with crushed egg shells and vinegar or lemon juice. I was hoping to avoid the extra steps, but if the plants cannot access the calcium without first breaking it down, then I should probably make the effort.
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It takes so long for the micro-organisms to break down the egg shells that using them as a source of calcium does not seem worth the bother. Let nature do its thing with the shells that are in the outdoor garden soil or in a compost pile. There are organic Cal-Mag products on the market that can be either mixed into the soil at the beginning or mixed into the water at the right times during the vegetative and/or flowering stages.

I have also found Cal-Mag added to other organic products. One of the Bat Guano products I buy has Cal-Mag listed along with percentages as an example.

el gringuito said:
I will brew the coffee grounds, and ferment the banana peels. Eventually I hope to get a piece of ground, and then I can ferment in soil. I appreciate the advice that pH will probably not be a problem.
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To buy coffee ground and brew them just for the spent grounds does not seem to be economically feasible.

Reading through your msgs above it seems that you have been finding local sources for some of the materials. If the town or city you live in has landscapers or landscape maintenance people you can also check where they get their supplies from. You might be able to find Peat Moss there.

el gringuito said:
I get the sense from your and SmokingWings' posts that I really want to open the soil up a lot, with a lot of fluffy, airy amendments. Does that seem right? (Make a nice fluffy mix that holds moisture and lots of compost?)
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The nice fluffy mix that holds moisture and also provides drainage at the same time is part of the meaning of 'soil tilth'. Organic material, both fresh and partly decomposed also help keep the soil loose and not compacted.
el gringuito said:
Umm.... and if that is true, then what is the role of soil, in your view? (Umm... can soil be considered "optional"??? My mind is bending...). (Oy va voi... is soil not really considered desirable???)
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A well built soil, either built by humans or by nature, is the perfect home for the soil organisms. We can find micro-organisms in Coco Coir mixes but these mixes seem to take constant attention by the gardener. In natural soil mixes the gardener can walk away and come back 5 to 6 months later and harvest the plant.

This might be of interest. The four components (approx ratios) of soil include: mineral matter 45%, organic matter 5%, air 25%, and water 25%. The mineral matter are all those small grains of sand, silt and clay. There are micro-organisms that feed on the organic materials and there are those that feed on mineral particles. Their excrement contains the dissolved mineral nutrients that the plants need. For more info on the main components of soil a google style of search on the "main components of soil" will point to many articles and explanations.
 
1/3 humus (black soil + EWC)
1/3 aeration - rice hulls and/or perlite
1/3 peat moss - probably cant get peat can sub in choir

minerals - rock dust at 6 cups/cubic feet (7.5 gal)

amendments @ 1 cup each per cubic foot

for Calcium look for Gypsum - crustacean meal - oyster shell flour

Kelp meal

Can look or amendments at your local feed store. I'm sure there's a feed store somewhere close-ish. Feed stores have most all amendments we need for a soil mix cause they feeding the animals the same amendments. There will be several "meals" you can use in your soil mix.

Top dress (mulch) with leaf mold from the forest. Lots of goodies in the forest

Can use bio-char as mentioned as an amendment.

Can also top dress under the leaf mold mulch with wood ash (pot-ash).
 
Smoking Wings, thanks very much. That helped put things into some pretty good perspective. The last paragraph was also very helpful.

Since the amendments take time to break down, it seems like the ideal thing would be an in-ground grow, where fresh organic matter is added, and the rice hulls and coco coir and such has an opportunity to break down over time. Hopefully I can get there some day. Are there other challenges to keeping the soil of an in-ground grow fresh?

To clarify my situation, I find rural Colombia to be nothing like the USA. I am surprised how little of the same infrastructure there is. They do have kind of a Home Depot (called Homecenter), but the selection is very little, compared. Shipping from the US is out of sight. I gave my Colombian friend a long shopping list and asked him to see if he can find an Ag store, and what he can find in it, and we will see what he comes up with in a few days. Here is my list:

Kelp meal or seaweed meal, Neem meal or karanja meal, Limestone or Calcium Carbonate CaCO3, Oyster Shell Powder or flour, Garden grade Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) NOT construction grade, Bone meal, Crustacean or crab meal, Fish meal, Feather meal, Blood meal, Soybean meal, Alfalfa meal, Bat guano, Green sand, Rock phosphate,
Epsom salts or Sal Ingles (magnesium sulfate), Dolomite lime or sweet lime, Humic acid, Mycorrhizae fungi, Coco coir or washed coco fibers, Perlite (lots), Rice hulls (lots), Worm castings (lots), Diatomaceous earth (food grade, not pool grade), Yucca.

The only stuff I know they have for sure is coco coir, Perlite, rice hulls, and worm castings. I am guessing that they will have some kind of crustacean meal, blood meal, some kind of feather meal, and some kind of fish meal, but I do not know that they do. Things seem pretty basic here. All of the other items on the list are a big question. I really hate to say this, but I am bracing myself emotionally in case I have to fall back on (Cough! Hack! Gasp!) commercial fertilizers in the short term, and then augment the soil with as much organic material, worm compost, eggshell CalMag, and banana peel tea as I can.

Hopefully my friend will come up with some good stuff. And if not, at least I can hold out hope that I will be able to set up for solid in-ground grows one day (somewhere, over the rainbow...hahaha)...

Long term, I like Azimuth's idea of researching accumulator plants. I like that a lot. Also, I have heard about Asian in-ground composting, so I will need to check things out. Only, first I will need to find a piece of ground, build a home, and plant a garden. All of those things take time in Latin America. Nothing happens quickly here. So realistically that may be a few years away. But I hope to start reading, and eventually I hope to have lots of different kinds of compost and bio-char.

I would dearly love to imitate Subcool's Super Soil or Clack, but I am not 100% sure it will be doable on this grow. But the comment about Tilth really helped me a lot. ("Oh yeah, tilth. That is what we are shooting for... I knew that!" Haha.)

We will see what my friend comes up with in a few days. Hopefully we will hit.

Thanks a zillion to everyone for your help. I can tell there is a lot of combined knowledge here, and I hope I can catch up over time.
 
Hi bobrown14,
Thanks for the good tips. Actually, I went to look for a feed store here today, and found nothing. I am not sure there is an equivalent feed store, but I asked my friend to look in his city. It seems reasonable that there *should be at least blood meal, bone meal, feather meal, fish meal, crab meal, crustacean meal, oyster shell calcium, limestone, or garden-grade gypsum, but I wouldn't put money on it. Things are pretty basic here.

At the minute all I know I can get for sure is some nice looking "black dirt", coco coir, Perlite, rice hulls, egg shells + vinegar to make homemade eggshell CalMag, worm castings, banana peel tea, coffee grounds, and rock dust. It's pretty limited, really.

I can get some basic chemical (cough! Hack!) 15-15-15 plus a few minors, and 10-30-10 plus a few minors, and then just incorporate as many organic elements as I can in the short term, until I can get to in-ground grows some day. I am dreading that thought, but I do not know what else I can realistically do in the short term, on my budget.

I hope my friend can come up with some good things by the end of the week, so I am going to delay my planting until next week, in the hopes he will find some good things. I appreciate all of the tips about biochar, in-ground composting, and all that. I will keep educating myself, and keep looking. I appreciate everyone's help.
 
Oh, I should add, this is actually a surprisingly arid area, so there isn't a lot of jungle-floor mulch. But I will try to read up on biochar. Thanks for everyone's help.
 
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