Natures living soil question

[Cannalove420]

I know that organic living soil with manure runoff ppm can’t be tested with accuracy but can it be tested to give me a “hint” when it needs a top dressing? Should the runoff be high or low? Right now my soils runoff is coming out at 300ppm I’m wondering if that’s to low for Organic soil. Thanks for reading and clearing up my questions.

 

[Emilya Green]

I know that organic living soil with manure runoff ppm can’t be tested with accuracy but can it be tested to give me a “hint” when it needs a top dressing? Should the runoff be high or low? Right now my soils runoff is coming out at 300ppm I’m wondering if that’s to low for Organic soil. Thanks for reading and clearing up my questions.

Your questions can not be answered. Runoff PPM is meaningless in soil, especially a good organic soil that has been amended and alive with active microlife. Also, the PPM of your runoff also is dependent on how much you dilute it... are you going for 10%, 20% or very little runoff? Each variation would give you as a result a different PPM reading... so which one is the accurate one that relates somehow to something going on in the soil? The answer is none of them.
Lastly, you should not be watering to produce runoff in an organic living soil. What are you trying to do, wash all the nutrients and microorganisms out of there?? You should water just to the point runoff begins and then stop.

Also, A good living soil has everything the plants need in it nutritionally, so why would you need to do a top dressing?
It is possible to add extra natural organic fertilizer to a living organic grow, mostly via compost teas... but if your soil doesn't already have enough minerals in it to support the growth of the plants through the entire process, top dressing is not going to help. You might as well go back to providing nutrients from a bottle and treating the soil as simply a medium to hold them if this is the case.

 

[Cannalove420]

Your questions can not be answered. Runoff PPM is meaningless in soil, especially a good organic soil that has been amended and alive with active microlife. Also, the PPM of your runoff also is dependent on how much you dilute it... are you going for 10%, 20% or very little runoff? Each variation would give you as a result a different PPM reading... so which one is the accurate one that relates somehow to something going on in the soil? The answer is none of them.
Lastly, you should not be watering to produce runoff in an organic living soil. What are you trying to do, wash all the nutrients and microorganisms out of there?? You should water just to the point runoff begins and then stop.

Also, A good living soil has everything the plants need in it nutritionally, so why would you need to do a top dressing?
It is possible to add extra natural organic fertilizer to a living organic grow, mostly via compost teas... but if your soil doesn't already have enough minerals in it to support the growth of the plants through the entire process, top dressing is not going to help. You might as well go back to providing nutrients from a bottle and treating the soil as simply a medium to hold them if this is the case.

The nature living soil was supposed to be a “water only” but once flower hit they started dying and organic bottled nutrients saved there life. I only water to about 10% runoff but the pot sucks it back up. I was just asking if a ppm meter can pick up dissolved solids in the runoff of soil. I don’t Evan wanna call it a living soil bc it was not properly amended so I’m feeding Botanicare Pure Blend Pro bloom. I just don’t want to over or under feed them so I was seeing if there was a way to “determine “ from using a ppm meter. I heard if you use a ppm meter with organic soil that u will get a really high reading so I’m just wondering if mine also should read off the charts.

 

[Cannalove420]

But I think I get it now. Ppm meters are useless and don’t show anything using a meter since there’s no salts. Thanks and sorry for the dumb questions

 

[Cannalove420]

Or correct me if I’m wrong but do the nutrients that the microbes brake down show any number at all? Evan if it’s not the correct number as salts . Fox farm showed up on the slurry at 1400-1500ppm right out the bag. It could be that the microbes only feed the plant what it needs so the numbers could be different with manure. “(That is if they show up as any number at all)”

 

[Emilya Green]

no question is a dumb one, so no problem there. I am wondering however what went wrong with the organic soil. Yes, there is a lot in there and the ppm would definitely be higher coming out of that than you would find in a non amended soil. I am curious what went wrong though... it sounds like for some reason the microlife stopped doing what they needed to do... and without microlife, an organic soil is as useless as a tub of sand... The nutrients in their raw form in that soil can't get up into the roots by themselves. So, my first question is what went wrong? What has killed off the microlife? Did you use chlorinated water or some other additives that were not compatable?
So for whatever reason, you went to bottled nutes. I think I remember you doing this some time back and I got confused about Botanicare having an organic nute line. So, using a ppm meter you could mix up your nutes in a bucket and get them to where they need to be for that stage of the grow. Apply it to the soil and watch what happens... you don't need a meter for that. I would go half strength at first, and after feeding I would watch the plants carefully for the next few days for any signs of tip burning. Since this is soil, I would not feed every time, I would give pH adjusted water between each feeding. If you didnt see burning, I would try full strength nutes the next time, for that is the reason you are giving nutes, to make your plants grow faster and bigger, and I would watch again to see if there is any burning.
Adjust accordingly.
If you aren't sure what you are seeing, throw up some pictures in a few days and give me a shout, and I would be glad to come in and see what I see. You can do this... There is room for a little bit of trial and error here.

 

[Cannalove420]

This would be a long post if I start from the beginning so I’ll just say I started off with a ruff start possibly killing the micro life with ph down hydroponics and that may be the cause of my plants going hungry after the first month from lack of “workers”. So I switched to citric acid and began feeding the plants botanicare and occasionally the liquid guano. My second biggest mistake on this grow was ph’ing my water based on my runoff ph readings. I ph my water down to the mid 3’s for a couple weeks to get the runoff down below 7. So as of to date after talking with the guys at the hydro store, I stopped ph’ing my water and Started feeding acct compost teas along with the botanicare. I can’t believe they are still alive! The next mistake I did was setting up to much lighting at to close of a distance. After I hooked up a 150watt led next to a 300watt the one plant with spotting became worse along with yellow at the tops on both plants and the other plant got the brown “blotches”. I am now only using the 150watt led and everything seems to be going good except I don’t know if the brown tips are from over feeding or to close of lights since the 150watt led is only 11 inches away on some tops
My nutrient arsenal:
1.botanicare Pure Blend Pro Bloom soil 1-4-5
2.buried treasure liquid guano 05-05-07
3.general Organics cal mag 1-0-0
4.malasses (used to aerate with the microbe tea)
5.acct compost tea
(I only add cal mag when using distilled water.

 

[Cannalove420]

And the spotting is only on the parts closet to the light

 

[Emilya Green]

The spotting on your leaves does look like a calcium deficiency. Many of us need calmag even when not using distilled water... these plants need a lot of it. Add calmag to your regular feedings to stop this from progressing. The burned tips do indicate an overfeeding situation... I would back off on the nutes a bit. As discussed above, in soil you should never make adjustments based on runoff, either pH or PPM. If you are running living organic, pH is not important and does not need adjusting. Feeding as you are out of a bottle, pH needs to be within a certain range for the nutes to be available to the plant. It seems I remember you were doing something funny with the tea too... as I remember it wasnt a traditional AACT designed to create microlife and I was skeptical it was going to fix the problem at the time. I am glad the nutes worked though... your plants look pretty good!

 

[Cannalove420]

Ok that’s good to know! I’m just going to feed water and the microbe tea that the local grow shop brews along with malasses added to it once a week. I’ll just watch the plants and feed based upon there needs. Or set up a day to feed just the liquid bat guano. The nutrient solution I been adding without ph’ing has been 5.5 going in, should I be raising it to the 6’s or can I water with 5.5? Also if I cut my well water with distilled water at 80ppm should I add the cal mag every watering or once a week or? Thanks emilya and sorry for all the questions. I feel like you have the best info out there and are the one to go to!

 

[Emilya Green]

Ok that’s good to know! I’m just going to feed water and the microbe tea that the local grow shop brews along with malasses added to it once a week. I’ll just watch the plants and feed based upon there needs. Or set up a day to feed just the liquid bat guano. The nutrient solution I been adding without ph’ing has been 5.5 going in, should I be raising it to the 6’s or can I water with 5.5? Also if I cut my well water with distilled water at 80ppm should I add the cal mag every watering or once a week or? Thanks emilya and sorry for all the questions. I feel like you have the best info out there and are the one to go to!

I would think that you need to pH the nute solution, and the plain water on those waterings to 6.3 as you would in any soil grow. The microbe tea should be fine the way it is... you wouldn't want to add acids or bases to that lest you kill the microlife that was just created. Stop worrying about the ppms other than in figuring out how much nutrient to add to your bucket... and then add the calmag to that. Best would be to throw the PPM meter in a drawer somewhere and get used to adding so many ml/gal of nutes without worrying about the PPM like a hydro gardener would have to do. The extra ppms are not going to hurt a thing in your soil once you find the right level of nutes to use.

 

[Captain Cannabis]

I just want to add 2 things.

1. Never take legitimate TLO advice from a guy at the hydro store.

2. If you have a decent TLO mix, don't take advice from the guy at the hydro store.

P.S. Emyila doesn't work at the hydro store!

 

[Cannalove420]

There’s also a lot of ppl who got there natures living soil amendment and are having to cook it a lot longer and amend it with a couple other ingredients since the batches from 2018-2019 ar

I would think that you need to pH the nute solution, and the plain water on those waterings to 6.3 as you would in any soil grow. The microbe tea should be fine the way it is... you wouldn't want to add acids or bases to that lest you kill the microlife that was just created. Stop worrying about the ppms other than in figuring out how much nutrient to add to your bucket... and then add the calmag to that. Best would be to throw the PPM meter in a drawer somewhere and get used to adding so many ml/gal of nutes without worrying about the PPM like a hydro gardener would have to do. The extra ppms are not going to hurt a thing in your soil once you find the right level of nutes to use.

how often can I introduce new microbes to the soil from using teas?

 

[Emilya Green]

There’s also a lot of ppl who got there natures living soil amendment and are having to cook it a lot longer and amend it with a couple other ingredients since the batches from 2018-2019 ar

how often can I introduce new microbes to the soil from using teas?

I run an actively aerated compost tea made specifically for whatever stage of growth we are in, about once a week all through the grow, starting early in veg. Without an active and thriving microherd, all the raw nutrients in my containers would be useless.
Sad to hear that maybe Natures Living Soil might not be cooked quite long enough or might not be amended strongly enough for cannabis. I am going to pick one of these soils for my next run... I will need to do some research.

 

[Cannalove420]

I run an actively aerated compost tea made specifically for whatever stage of growth we are in, about once a week all through the grow, starting early in veg. Without an active and thriving microherd, all the raw nutrients in my containers would be useless.
Sad to hear that maybe Natures Living Soil might not be cooked quite long enough or might not be amended strongly enough for cannabis. I am going to pick one of these soils for my next run... I will need to do some research.

Is a ppm meter useless with organic nutrients like General Organics calmag? Or does it only apply to soil?. I tried searching for the question but can’t find an answer. When I add calmag to my distilled water it reads 400ppm but then again it could be useless readings......I hope. Thanks! That number 300 scares me bc that’s what my tap water is and before I stopped using the well water I began noticing the spots, I thought it was starting to spot from to much cal in the hard water but I’m hoping it’s a deficiency since that’s what I’m treating it as. And lastly is the ph of the runoff useless? It went in at 6.6 and out at 7.7

 

[Emilya Green]

Is a ppm meter useless with organic nutrients like General Organics calmag? Or does it only apply to soil?. I tried searching for the question but can’t find an answer. When I add calmag to my distilled water it reads 400ppm but then again it could be useless readings......I hope. Thanks! That number 300 scares me bc that’s what my tap water is and before I stopped using the well water I began noticing the spots, I thought it was starting to spot from to much cal in the hard water but I’m hoping it’s a deficiency since that’s what I’m treating it as. And lastly is the ph of the runoff useless? It went in at 6.6 and out at 7.7

Good questions all, and some of the most confused subjects out here on the forums. Hydro needs to be a very exact science. Since the medium you are working with is the water itself, it needs to start by being pure and ppm is a very big deal.
Soil is a buffer. It is also a medium that is more stable than the water based hydro systems, and it can be buffered to adjust to highs and lows in pH. Since soil does not have to be "pure" like a water based system, the ppm of the solids in soil are not able to be equated to an equal thing in the hydro world. Some people adjust their nutes based on a ppm measurement of the nutrient mix, and that is fine so that you know the level you have adjusted to, but there is no need to fear increasing the ppm of your mix by adding calmag or terpinator or any other additives you deem necessary... the soil simply does not care. If measuring your nutes by ppm bothers you since your water isn't starting out pure, adjust upward based on the initial reading of your water. I find it much less confusing in soil type grows to switch to the ml/gal measurements and put the ppm meter away.
Next, runoff. Runoff in soil is meaningless, whether you are looking at pH or ppm. It tells you nothing about the soil above, only that the water you put in the top percolated down through the soil and brought some debris with it. Both the ppm and pH reading will change depending on how much runoff you arbitrarily produce and there is no way to correlate these readings with anything going on in the soil. Simply always water, whether it is plain water or water with nutes, at the correct pH for your medium... in soil 6.3pH is the point of most nutrient mobility. Come in at that level every time and you will be fine.
So you are adjusting to 6.6. The usable range in soil is 6.2-6.8. When you come in at 6.6, the soil immediately starts its upward drift of the pH, and within minutes your pH is rising up out of the range and it is no wonder you are seeing nutrient deficiencies as a result. Start adjusting all fluids down to 6.3 and I think you will see a much better response from the plants. Stop worrying about the runoff... that is a soilless thing.

 

[Cannalove420]

Good questions all, and some of the most confused subjects out here on the forums. Hydro needs to be a very exact science. Since the medium you are working with is the water itself, it needs to start by being pure and ppm is a very big deal.
Soil is a buffer. It is also a medium that is more stable than the water based hydro systems, and it can be buffered to adjust to highs and lows in pH. Since soil does not have to be "pure" like a water based system, the ppm of the solids in soil are not able to be equated to an equal thing in the hydro world. Some people adjust their nutes based on a ppm measurement of the nutrient mix, and that is fine so that you know the level you have adjusted to, but there is no need to fear increasing the ppm of your mix by adding calmag or terpinator or any other additives you deem necessary... the soil simply does not care. If measuring your nutes by ppm bothers you since your water isn't starting out pure, adjust upward based on the initial reading of your water. I find it much less confusing in soil type grows to switch to the ml/gal measurements and put the ppm meter away.
Next, runoff. Runoff in soil is meaningless, whether you are looking at pH or ppm. It tells you nothing about the soil above, only that the water you put in the top percolated down through the soil and brought some debris with it. Both the ppm and pH reading will change depending on how much runoff you arbitrarily produce and there is no way to correlate these readings with anything going on in the soil. Simply always water, whether it is plain water or water with nutes, at the correct pH for your medium... in soil 6.3pH is the point of most nutrient mobility. Come in at that level every time and you will be fine.
So you are adjusting to 6.6. The usable range in soil is 6.2-6.8. When you come in at 6.6, the soil immediately starts its upward drift of the pH, and within minutes your pH is rising up out of the range and it is no wonder you are seeing nutrient deficiencies as a result. Start adjusting all fluids down to 6.3 and I think you will see a much better response from the plants. Stop worrying about the runoff... that is a soilless thing.

Thanks, the information you give is very helpful I appreciate it. Would I be able to water with let’s say 5.5 to get the runoff ppm to not jump up so high? Or do I have to water in the 6.2-6.8 range? I know I read somewhere that anything below 5.5 is considered acid rain/water and is harmful to the microbes. 2nd question, Can Dolomite lime be Used to lower the ph or is it only good to raise it?

 

[Emilya Green]

You are still thinking the runoff reading is somehow important. It is not. Not in a soil grow. Continuing to read things contrary to this is simply going to confuse you. Above, you are confusing ppm and pH. If you continue to try to chase that runoff number, you are going to harm your plants. You DO have to water in the 6.2-6.8 range, preferably at 6.3 in order to set the pH of your container of soil in the proper range. Watering at 5.5 simply sets the entire container into the hydro range, and you may as well have not fed that time, because your pH will be out of range during that entire cycle and any nutes in the water designed to become available in the soil pH range will be invisible to the plant.
Again, your question about dolomite seems to indicate that you are still thinking that you need to adjust your soil pH. You most likely do not need to do this and really have no idea what the actual base pH of your soil is, and adding more dolomite will buffer your soil so heavily up to the top part of the soil pH range that you could easily make it unusable for growing cannabis. Instead of slowly drifting up from the 6.3 that I am advising you to come in at, added dolomite would react to incoming water and would rocket the pH of the container upward every time you water. Dolomite could actually cause the pH of your container to so quickly rise out of range that you could easily harm your plants.
If you have normal soil that is made for growing plants, its base pH is probably set up near 6.7-6.8. This is on purpose, so that when you water at 6.3, your container slowly drifts through the entire usable pH range as the water is used up. This base pH is not normally advised to be adjusted and most people don't even know how to properly measure it. The scientists that designed that soil have produced a very deliberate drift rate for their soil, and it is this stability that allows you to grow great plants. If you start adding to the soil mix things that will have consequences not designed into that soil, you can totally ruin your next grow... and since you are essentially investing 4 months of time and effort and money into this grow, can you really afford to make adjustments that you really don't totally understand?
Again, and please write this down somewhere so it locks into your thinking...
All you have to do is water at the correct pH... the soil takes over from there and drifts you through the pH range. It is no harder than that. No adjustment to the soil is necessary and no checking of the runoff can tell you if you are doing it right or wrong. Some people may try to blow smoke at you and tell you that they can tell all sorts of things from your runoff measurements. Sadly they can not. In a soil grow, runoff readings are totally, completely and non irrefutably, worthless. Measuring runoff in soil is a total waste of time, and making adjustments to your soil or trying to compensate the incoming fluid pH based on that arbitrary reading are by definition going to be harmful.

 

[Cannalove420]

Definitely taking notes thanks

 

[Cannalove420]

You are still thinking the runoff reading is somehow important. It is not. Not in a soil grow. Continuing to read things contrary to this is simply going to confuse you. Above, you are confusing ppm and pH. If you continue to try to chase that runoff number, you are going to harm your plants. You DO have to water in the 6.2-6.8 range, preferably at 6.3 in order to set the pH of your container of soil in the proper range. Watering at 5.5 simply sets the entire container into the hydro range, and you may as well have not fed that time, because your pH will be out of range during that entire cycle and any nutes in the water designed to become available in the soil pH range will be invisible to the plant.
Again, your question about dolomite seems to indicate that you are still thinking that you need to adjust your soil pH. You most likely do not need to do this and really have no idea what the actual base pH of your soil is, and adding more dolomite will buffer your soil so heavily up to the top part of the soil pH range that you could easily make it unusable for growing cannabis. Instead of slowly drifting up from the 6.3 that I am advising you to come in at, added dolomite would react to incoming water and would rocket the pH of the container upward every time you water. Dolomite could actually cause the pH of your container to so quickly rise out of range that you could easily harm your plants.
If you have normal soil that is made for growing plants, its base pH is probably set up near 6.7-6.8. This is on purpose, so that when you water at 6.3, your container slowly drifts through the entire usable pH range as the water is used up. This base pH is not normally advised to be adjusted and most people don't even know how to properly measure it. The scientists that designed that soil have produced a very deliberate drift rate for their soil, and it is this stability that allows you to grow great plants. If you start adding to the soil mix things that will have consequences not designed into that soil, you can totally ruin your next grow... and since you are essentially investing 4 months of time and effort and money into this grow, can you really afford to make adjustments that you really don't totally understand?
Again, and please write this down somewhere so it locks into your thinking...
All you have to do is water at the correct pH... the soil takes over from there and drifts you through the pH range. It is no harder than that. No adjustment to the soil is necessary and no checking of the runoff can tell you if you are doing it right or wrong. Some people may try to blow smoke at you and tell you that they can tell all sorts of things from your runoff measurements. Sadly they can not. In a soil grow, runoff readings are totally, completely and non irrefutably, worthless. Measuring runoff in soil is a total waste of time, and making adjustments to your soil or trying to compensate the incoming fluid pH based on that arbitrary reading are by definition going to be harmful.

Good morning emilya, I figured this would be a question for the expert. I’m using distilled water and when I feed General Organics calmag+ At the lowest recommended dosage 1tsp the ppms are around 300. Do you think that is to much cal mag?