Lost on nutes

[lendee]

I am a first time grower using aeroponics getting ready to select my nutes and was looking at advanced nutrients grow,bloom,micro. Went to their web site to use their nutrient calculator and got totally lost it seems to suggest you use all three from start to finish and up to six different additives also.

I was directed to this site 420 Magazine for clarification and was redirected to for further clarification and OMG I am told to start my res tank out with SensiZym, B52, Humic Acid, Fulvic Acid, Mother earth tea blend, Bud Blood, Big Bud, Overdrive, Pirrnha, Voodoo Juice, Tarrantula, Carbo Load, Barricale, and Final Phase. (14 different items) Then add my nutes for correct PPM's I don't think I'll have the room or the money after all its only a 25 gal tank.

Is their a simple mix that gets the job done and you don't have to be a chemist to use. I am now looking at Jacks 5-12-26 by JR Peters 4lb's for $50,00 and you use 110 grams to 32 gallons of water and mix 73 grams of cal nitrate to it and that's it you feed this from start to finish.

 

[DrOfDank]

Re: lost on nuts

Ferts don't have all your minerals, which is why you need to add them in hydro. You aren't going to find anything out there "ready to go" out of the bottle.

 

[JJ Bones]

Re: lost on nuts

Usually hydroponic growers will be rockin' 1200-1500PPM solutions.

 

[Alaskan1]

Re: lost on nuts

Usually hydroponic growers will be rockin' 1200-1500PPM solutions.

some as high at 1800 to 2400......just sayin lol

 

[lendee]

Re: lost on nuts

Thank you all for your posts I have been through quite an education in the past few days and can't believe my post of 4/2013 My education started at advanced nutrients but I've read for about 3 days solid all kinds of forums and got educated on at least 5 different lines of nuts and seriously looked at a couple of private formulas. But I think I will be using AN Sensi A&B Hobbyist Level which includes VooDooJuice, Big Bud, B-52, and Overdrive with the addition of Final Phase, Sensizym and H202. I will apply as per their chart and Hope for the best. Knowing I have this kind of back-up on 420 helps also. Good growing!!. & thanks again to all that responded.

 

[Alaskan1]

Re: lost on nuts

personally I would drop the use of H202 and use Dutch Masters Zone. This will keep the system sterile and keep the bad bacteria at bay. You in the long run will save yourself headaches and money.

 

[lendee]

Re: lost on nuts

thanks for the information I'm on my way to check out this Dutch master zone will update soon. Thanks for the time.

 

[lendee]

Re: lost on nuts

thanks for the information I'm on my way to check out this Dutch master zone will update soon. Thanks for the time.

Liked what I seen and put a liter of Dutch Master Zone in my order thanks Alaskan1 root condition is the top of my priorities and this product not only has very good credentials it virtually works with all products just mix before nutrient and use from start to finish can't get simpler and after going through the price shock I went through with everything else it was nice to see a more reasonable price.

 

[Alaskan1]

Re: lost on nuts

thanks for the information I'm on my way to check out this Dutch master zone will update soon. Thanks for the time.

Liked what I seen and put a liter of Dutch Master Zone in my order thanks Alaskan1 root condition is the top of my priorities and this product not only has very good credentials it virtually works with all products just mix before nutrient and use from start to finish can't get simpler and after going through the price shock I went through with everything else it was nice to see a more reasonable price.

Zone has saved many a crop from getting killed myself included and will make it so you never have to worry about root rot again. I use 3 tablespoons per 55 gallons and it works very well at that lower rate

 

[toker69]

Re: lost on nuts

I grow using the JR Peters 5-12-26, and Calcium Nitrate combo. It works great for me, but I also think so many things work, and you gotta find whats right for you, and your goals. I've seen awesome grows with miracle grow. I personally went straight past the 4 pound bags to the 25 pound bags. You said it was $50 bucks, but the 25 pounders are only $100 bucks. 21 extra pounds for only $50 bucks more. I've been using it for about 6 months now, and it's working great for me. I grow autos in coco, and those bags of nutes are going to last me years, and years. Basicly it will mix up to over 14,000 gallons of solution the way I'm using it.

 

[Bassman59]

Re: lost on nuts

Usually hydroponic growers will be rockin' 1200-1500PPM solutions.

Something inherently bad about this post. While JJBones is 100% correct, it's also wrong.

Point being: On what meter? If you run 1500 ppm on my meter you will 100% burn all cannabis plants. But on another meter, you'll be fine.

TDS meters are based on two basic conversion methods. They actually read the electrical conductivity from the minerals in the nutes. This gets converted to a PPM #. E.C. is the only real true number, but 99% of the growers speak in ppm.

Know what your meter conversion rate is. Mine is .500, I suspect that JJ Bones meter is .700. What this means is that for him, @ 1200 ppm he's running 1.7 e.c. and at 1500 ppm, 2.1 e.c. Totally respectable numbers for cannabis. But if I ran 1500 ppm that would be 3.0 e.c. and burn the shit out of my girls.

However, if I know JJ is running 1.7-2.1 or is telling me too, then I can use my .500 conversion rate and my ppm will be 850-1050 ppm. Which just happens to be where I run my plants at.

It's our fault on these forums. We as a group speak in the wrong language sometimes. Thus I'm on my own personal mission to convert people to using "ppm @ xxx conversion rate". Or just plane e.c. even. Then at least when people ask wtf e.c. is we can give them the conversion factor for the meter they have if they don't know it and they'll see the difference.

Edit: I don't mean to say JJ is a bad guy for using those numbers. It's just a language we've all spoken for too long and it still mixes newcomers and some oldtimer's alike up.

 

[toker69]

Re: lost on nuts

You're right about that Bassman. EC alone is recommended by quite a few people just for that reason.

Here's a copy, and paste from from one.

The debate over EC and TDS has been an ongoing issue for a long time. These two measurements are used to determine the strength of hydroponic solution. Although they are widely used they should only be used as a guideline and you should always follow mixing instructions on the label of you nutrient.

EC stands for Electrical Conductivity and is measured in mS/cm or millisiemens per centimeter. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids and is measured in PPM or parts per million. TDS is acquired by taking the EC value and performing a calculation to determine the TDS value. Because TDS is actually a calculation it is really only a guess at what the nutrient concentration is. On top of that, there are three different conversion factors to determine TDS and different manufacturers use different conversion factors. In other words you could test the same solution with two different meters and get two totally different readings. But the EC is read the same by all meters the only difference is the conversion factor.

First of all lets talk about the differences and similarities between EC and TDS. We all know that they are both a measure of the amount of dissolved solids in your nutrient solution. This measurement is used by growers to get an idea of how much nutrient is present in the solution. By maintaining the correct level of nutrients in the solution your plants will achieve maximum results. This all sounds very important but there are some major differences between the different meter manufacturers. Some of you may have noticed that some calibration solutions that are marked to read at a certain TDS may actually read different from meter to meter. This is where the problem begins.

Some of you may have not even heard of EC and others may have heard of it but do not even know what it is. Unfortunately many growers in the United States have become very accustomed to using the TDS scale while in most other countries, including Europe, they don't use anything but EC. The fact is that TDS is actually a result of a calculation from EC. The problem is lack of consistency among manufacturers when it comes to conversion factors. This is where it may get a little confusing. Most meter manufacturers in the hydroponics industry use one of two conversions. There is the 442 conversion (40% sodium sulfate, 40% sodium bicarbonate, and 20% sodium chloride) which some say is the closest thing to a hydroponic solution. The 442 conversion is approximately 700 x EC in millisiemens (mS). Then there is the NaCl conversion (sodium chloride) which others say is the closest thing to a hydroponic solution. The NaCl conversion is approximately 500 x EC in millisiemens (mS). You can see where the confusion comes from because the same solution will read 2100 ppm on one meter and it will read 1500 ppm on the other. That is a difference of 600 ppm which as many of you know could be devastating. Both meters are functioning correctly they are just calculating the TDS using a different formula. So, if you do not calibrate your meter using the correct calibration solution your meter could give you a very inaccurate reading.

The solution is simple, use EC. With EC, no conversion is required so all meters will read the same regardless of the manufacturer.

 

[JJ Bones]

Great point! I love getting specific, sometimes I'm used to not being so specific because it throws off new growers. However I agree with you Bassman. Here is a great piece of info from one of my friends, Everest Fernandez:

Conversion Factors
TDS NaCl

NaCl is a conversion factor based on Sodium Chloride (regular table salt.)
The conversion factor range is 0.47 to 0.5.
Non-linear meters based on NaCl typically use: 0.5 x the EC level (if converting from µS to ppm or mS to ppt) or 500 x the EC level, if converting from mS to ppm.
TDS 442™

442™ or Natural Water™ is a proprietary scale based on properties of naturally occurring fresh water. The 442™ part is an abbreviation of 40% sodium sulfate, 40% sodium bicarbonate, and 20% sodium chloride.
The conversion factor range is 0.65 to 0.85.
Non-linear meters based on 442™ typically use: 0.7 x the EC level (if converting from µS to ppm or mS to ppt) or 700 x the EC level, if converting from mS to ppm.
TDS KCl

KCl is a conversion factor based on Potassium Chloride.
The conversion factor range is 0.5 to 0.57.
Non-linear meters based on KCl typically use: 0.55 x the EC level if converting from µS to ppm or mS to ppt) or 700 x the EC level, if converting from mS to ppm.
TDS 640

A less popular conversion factor.
The conversion factor range is 0.64 to 0.67.
Non-linear meters based on 640 typically use: 0.64 x the EC level if converting from µS to ppm or mS to ppt) or 640 x the EC level, if converting from mS to ppm.

Yes, four different possible conversion factors means that four different meters that give measurements in ppm may all give different readings from the same solution! However, all EC meters should give the same reading in the same solution as there’s no conversion factor necessary.
I know, I know … TDS sounds like a confusing thing – but it’s really just a measure of the total ions in solution. For every gallon of water you have X mg’s of stuff in it. If one of your friends starts talking about their nutrient solution in terms of TDS, be sure to find out what scale they are using. Many growers, especially in Europe, in an effort to avoid confusion, use EC. If you are still confused, contact the manufacturer of your nutrients and find out what they recommend. Remember to ask them what TDS scale they use if they give you dosages in terms of ppm.
Likewise, if you are working with a TDS meter that only has a ppm display, remember you need to be sure of the conversion factor being used. TDS comes into its own when you need to measure individual elements in applications such as nutrient and water quality, tissue analysis results and soil analysis. Results from these laboratory tests will give individual elemental readings in ppm or mg/l. Remember, a TDS meter will only give you an approximation of the overall nutrient concentration, based on the conversation factor used.
Below is a table to show the relationship between the various methods of displaying the strength of a nutrient solution.
EC (mS) EC (µS) TDS NaCl
(EC µS x 0.5) TDS KCI
(EC µS x 0.55) TDS 640
(EC µS x 0.64) Natural Water™ 442
(EC µS x 0.7)
0.6 600 300 330 384 420
1.2 1,200 600 660 768 840
1.8 1,800 900 990 1,152 1,260
2.4 2,400 1,200 1,320 1,536 1,680
3.0 3,000 1,500 1,650 1,920 2,100
Jargon Buster

EC = Electrical Conductivity
TDS = Total Dissolved Solids
PPM = Parts Per Million
PPT = Parts Per Thousand
µS (or µS/cm) = micro-Siemens (one millionth of a siemen.)
mS (or mS/cm) = milli-Siemens (one thousandth of a siemen.)
NaCl = Sodium Chloride (EC-to-TDS conversion – EC x 0.5)
KCl = Potassium Chloride (EC-to-TDS conversion EC x 0.55)
442 = 442 Natural Water™ (EC-to-TDS EC x 0.7) (The “442” is an abbreviation for 40% sodium sulfate, 40% sodium bicarbonate and 20% sodium chloride.)

Making Sense of your Meter

Here are some popular TDS meters along with their conversion factors, where applicable.
MAKE & MODEL TDS FACTOR
BLUELAB

TRUNCHEON Displays EC and both NaCL (0.5) and 442™ (0.7)
GUARDIAN Displays EC and both NaCL (0.5) and 442™ (0.7)
HANNA

HI 98300 0.65
HI 98301 / 98302 NaCL (0.5)
GRO-CHECK COMBO

HI 981404N / HI 981405N
442™ (0.7)
HI 983301N 442™ (0.7)
HI 983301N/5 NaCL (0.5)
HM DIGITAL

TDS-3 NaCL (0.5)
AP-2 None – just measures EC
COM-100 Displays EC and TDS (user can select NaCl, 442 or KCl factors)
OAKTON

EcoTestr, TDSTestr11, PTTestr35 User Adjustable TDS Factor between 0.4 and 1.0

Default setting: 0.71
MILWAUKEE

MW401, MW402 NaCL (0.5)
T75, T76 NaCL (0.5)
C65, C66, MW301, MW302 None – just measures EC
MW801 NaCL (0.5)
MW802 0.65
NUTRIDIP

Tri-Meter 202 NaCL (0.5)
Tri-Meter 203 442™ (0.7)
Handheld 442™ (0.7)

 

[Bassman59]

Good find on that explanation Toker69.

To lendee's question about being lost on nutes:

First allow me to suggest staying away from most powdered nutrients in hydroponics. I tried some on my first grow and stopped quickly. They just don't do so well in dwc (what I was growing in).

Most importantly however, being a newcomer, I would suggest sticking to a much simpler recipe than 14 different nutrients. First off, it's of my own personal opinion, the push to so many different nutrients is nothing more than a wallet grabber in terms of value to your grow.

Now I love AN products, don't get me wrong. But really, there is absolutely no need to have 4 or 6 different base nutrients between veg & flower.

Lets use a two part as an example. My numbers will not be accurate, but will give proper example.

Let say mfg'r says use Veg formula A & B mixing 10ml/g each through veg.
Then in flower use Bloom formula A & B mixing 10ml/g each through flower.

ok so now lets say Veg formula A is 3-3-0 and B formula is 1-2-6 and let's say they suggest 10ml each. Ok fine.

But when we go to flower, they tell us to buy Bloom two part base nutrients and we do.
Here we get formula A @ 3-2-0 and formula B @ 2-4-8 and let us suppose the mfg says to also mix @ 10ml/g. ok great.

But what we also could have done is bought 1 bottle of say Veg formula A and Bloom formula B. We mixed in veg say 10ml/g of A and 5ml/g of B and got nearly the identical mix as the two part system.

Then in flower we mixed at 5ml/g of A and 10ml/g of B and AGAIN, got nearly the identical mix as the two part Bloom system. See where I'm going with this?

I feel like I'm getting raped in the ass every time I go with such a system. However there are those or have been, nutrient mfg's that do it in a manner that shows less wallet grab. They use their two part system from veg-flower and include a calculator that shows us mixing more A than B in veg, then swinging to more B than A in flower. Both brands give us similar results. But one requires buying only two bottles vs four from the other.

I also believe for the newer grower, sticking to far fewer than the 14 suggested to start out. As you gain experience adding more additives can be to your advantage.

Personally, even after 2+ years growing and reading and studying my ass off I still use just a few as I believe I have found "my spot". Each grower is different and has different needs. But for me I use a two part A&B base from start to finish, mixed at differing amounts during each phase. I also use Fox Farms Bush Doctor Microbe Brew from veg to first week of flower. This replaces AN Voodoo Juice for me at a fraction of the cost for great root development. Then I use Hygrozyme, (some folks use Cannazyme, others use Zone) from start to finish to keep my nutrient clean of baddies, and in flower I add AN Big Bud in both the powdered and liquid forms to really boost the buds. I also use at maybe 1/2 strength a cal-mag solution because I use RO water only and my nutrients don't have quite enough of these. Then there's AN B52 which I also love.

That's it. Basically 7-8 nutrients and that suits me well.

Don't think I feel that AN makes an inferior product when I mention them. Far from it. I love AN products. They're just uber expensive. So I now use just a couple of them that fit my niche.

 

[toker69]

Interesting stuff. I agree that people are being oversold on a lot of products. But what dry nutes did you use? And what problems did you have? Just wondering because that's what I use, and it seems to be working good for me. Maybe it was because it was your first grow? I was thinking of trying a root stimulator product. I totally agree also that each grower has to find his own way for his situation. I'm not in DWC tho. I grow in coco.