Light green spots?

[Lil Neutrino]

Problem:

I read through the following thread twice already but don't really see anything that resembles or sounds like it except maybe a pH issue.
Cannabis Plant and Pest Problem Solver - Pictorial

However, the pH of my run-off water after watering is right at 7 but this is with a liquid pH tester and a color chart as I don't have a digital meter yet. I have had them in FFOF for two weeks now and have added zero nutes and only used distilled water (verified with pH test to be 7) the entire time. When I first transplanted them in to the FFOF I had mixed a very small amount of hydrated lime in with the FFOF and added some perlite. I learned quickly that hydrated lime is not good (got it mixed up with dolomite) as my pH of the run-off was pushing 9! The next watering a few days later had it down to about 8 and a few days after that it was down to 7 and has been steady ever since.

The lighter green is not occuring on the newer growth, seems to be just on a few leaflets on the next major node down. I can take some more pics if it will help. I'm not freaking out over this mild discoloration as it is only on a few leaflets but if it begins to show up elsewhere I'm going to start worrying a bit. I know plants can suffer from mild problems from time to time and generally recover on their own but I also know that when a problem begins to spread and worsen that it's time to take action.

Anyone have any idea what this could be from? I've got the temps stabilized in my cabinet to no more than 82-83F with the lights on, doesn't appear to be burn marks even though I keep the CFL's pretty close (have begun to keep them about 2" from the tops now though). Thanks!

Edit: That pic was taken this morning...here are two pics I just took, it appears the symptoms are worsening but not spreading to other leaflets. This is appearing on two leaflets on one leaf and one leaflet on another on the same plant. Symptoms are on the largest leaves that are at the top of the plant but not the newest growth. Also if you look closely in the second pic you can see some "creases" in the leaflets that are perpendicular to the main vein, almost like someone was trying to slash it with a knife. I've never seen that before on anything...wonder if it's related. I'll read through the above pictorial again now that I have better pics but would love some extraneous input!

Edit 2: After carefully reading the sticky about nutrient problems I am now leaning toward a pH problem but I am unsure if it is because of a high or low pH. I have also noticed in one particular spot lower on the plant what appears to maybe be a boron deficiency. It is a small spot but is a copper/golden color unlike most other deficiencies which seem to be either yellowish or whitish. The article says:

Problems with Boron Being Locked out by PH troubles

Soil ph under 5.5 or over 6.8, sandy soil, soil with low organic matter and or lack of nitrogen.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe my soil is slightly acidic as I think 7 is just a hair too high. If I were to adjust the pH of my distilled water down to 6-6.5 (I know each full point is a logarithmic change, i.e. 10X different) how long before I would see the effects?

 

[Ms.Fox]

Do you have a pic of the copper looking color? I'm really unfamiliar with this issue. Here's a thread with similar pics as yours. Rust or Black Spot? Grow support needed! (excellent pictures provided) and also check this one out for the copper color you describe Orange rust spots on older leaves: Pics

rust explained.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rust, how many of you have had this and been beaten by it? lots i bet!!!
first, rust is a fungi. it is opportunist. it preys on unwell plants. if something is a miss, rust is a sign. rust has been identified to have 7,000 species. it attacks crops of every description. but we're only interested in one variety arn't we?
if rust is present early in a grow, you have problems as it's an indicator something in your room is a miss. usually ventilation. go through your system and double check things are in place and working properly.
rust is an air borne fungi. if given the opportunity, it WILL take hold. it usually does during flower as this is when the plants immune system is at its weakest as its energies are concentrating on re-production, not survival.
depending on what part of the grow you get it, you can cure/minimize it with either chemical or natural remedies.
it enters the leaf via the stomata and then it's off and running.
fungacides used are generally copper based and include; thriram, manzecob, maneb or zineb at 10 day intervills.
organic;
baking soda, 1 tea spoon/ quart of water. spray on.
copper sulphate, read lables.
fungacidal soap sprays;
garlic sprays, 1/2 cup minced garlic, 1 quart of water. let sit 24hrs, strain, spray.
sulphur, one of the best natural sprays. it is low in toxicity.
micro kill, a citric based killer. i use this with great success

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Sure do, it's posted in the last post of my journal...thanks for the links, am reading them now! Although for the life of me I don't know why I forgot about the search engine haha...it's usually one of the first things I go to, especially when replies are slow.

 

[McBudz]

If you do not know if it is a pH too low or too high issues then you are not checking your pH at every watering/feeding? tisk tisk :/

You must check the pH of your solution before feeding it to your plants. Adjust if needed. Then water your plants. Collect the runoff in a saucer or similar clean collection pan. Now measure the pH of that runoff. That is the pH of your soil and the most important measurement. If it is a lot lower or higher then what you put in you need to ammend your soil to help buffer better and also adjust your ingoing solution.

Shoot for 6.5 plus or minus .2. So if you put 6.7 in and it comes out at 6.5 you are good.

If you put 6.5 in and it comes out at 5.7 you should probably add some dolomite lime (pulverzied) into your soil to help sweeten it up.

And get a good digital meter, no test strips, soil kits, or analog meters.

PH600 by Milwaukee $20-$25 is all you need.

get you r pH in check then sort out any thing else. If pH is not right you will chase your tail forever.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

However, the pH of my run-off water after watering is right at 7 but this is with a liquid pH tester and a color chart as I don't have a digital meter yet. I have had them in FFOF for two weeks now and have added zero nutes and only used distilled water (verified with pH test to be 7) the entire time. When I first transplanted them in to the FFOF I had mixed a very small amount of hydrated lime in with the FFOF and added some perlite. I learned quickly that hydrated lime is not good (got it mixed up with dolomite) as my pH of the run-off was pushing 9! The next watering a few days later had it down to about 8 and a few days after that it was down to 7 and has been steady ever since.

If you do not know if it is a pH too low or too high issues then you are not checking your pH at every watering/feeding? tisk tisk :/

I check it every time I water...

You must check the pH of your solution before feeding it to your plants. Adjust if needed. Then water your plants. Collect the runoff in a saucer or similar clean collection pan. Now measure the pH of that runoff. That is the pH of your soil and the most important measurement. If it is a lot lower or higher then what you put in you need to ammend your soil to help buffer better and also adjust your ingoing solution.

No solution, it's been pure distilled water for the past two weeks. My method of checking the pH is exactly as you described. It has been right at the 7 mark which is why I think I need to adjust a hair down but with the liquid pH testers it's hard to know exactly where I'm at (6.8, 7, 7.1, etc).

Shoot for 6.5 plus or minus .2. So if you put 6.7 in and it comes out at 6.5 you are good.

If you put 6.5 in and it comes out at 5.7 you should probably add some dolomite lime (pulverzied) into your soil to help sweeten it up.

And get a good digital meter, no test strips, soil kits, or analog meters.

PH600 by Milwaukee $20-$25 is all you need.

get you r pH in check then sort out any thing else. If pH is not right you will chase your tail forever.

Been meaning to order that tester for a week or so, need to get off my butt and scrounge up $20 to do it (been unemployed 95% of this year). I have read that there can be hot spots in soil mixes if they aren't mixed very well, can't recall if users of FFOF have had this issue or not.

*bows down before the almight pH*

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Do you have a pic of the copper looking color? I'm really unfamiliar with this issue. Here's a thread with similar pics as yours. Rust or Black Spot? Grow support needed! (excellent pictures provided) and also check this one out for the copper color you describe Orange rust spots on older leaves: Pics

The first couple of pics in the first link look very much like what I have...I hope to heck it's not rust that is starting elsewhere. I'm pretty sure my ventilation is good as my cabinet volume is 32ft^3 and I have two 40CFM fans running exhaust out the back at the top and three intakes in the floor (two towards the front on the sides and one in the middle towards the back). This should create "maximum" air flow through the cabinet from my engineering perspective, although I'm not from the mechanical discipline.

 

[fineas]

neutrino,
Have you sprayed your plants with water or other substances while under the light? That is another reason for spots on leaves when the rest of your plant looks healthy.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

I have misted the soil underneath the foliage two, maybe three times (don't ask me why, boredom can be a bad thing) but never directly on to the leaves. I know that the droplets can act as prisms and burn the leaves, especially if you don't add something like detergent. Maybe some minute amount of water got on them but I was extremely careful to spray close to the soil and keep the nozzle underneath the leaves.

I am about to post some new pics but this time I have full plant photos from the sides and tops and will mark where the problems are at as well as close-ups of the problem areas including the purple colored stems (gotta read back through that sticky and see if anything matches up, I had not noticed that before).

Thank you everyone for your input, it is greatly appreciated!

 

[Lil Neutrino]

First up...Ms. Robinson:

The first three show the "stature" of the plant, doesn't appear to be really drooping or anything. You can barely see the "rust" on the lower fan leaf on the right hand side in the first pic (forgot to circle it in Paint, third leaf to the right of the big one pointing straight down) in the full res version (Media).

Problem

Hair out of focus

Purple stems

Top view showing new growth, looks healthy to me

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Now Freja...definitely drooping, I thought it was maybe from watering yesterday but her soil is already dry a good 1.5" down and below that is moist, not soaking wet. She may have been slightly over-watered as I only had a little bit left after watering the other two (only do it when the pots feel light) so I gave her the last bit even though she was just watered the day before. If she perks up by tonight/tomorrow morning I'll chalk it up to over-watering. Her branches feel fairly limp though so I'm not completely sure...I've never felt the branches of an over-watered plant.

First couple of shots...profile and view from above of new growth (looks healthy).

Again, purple stems?

Already have good pics up of the top side of the leaf, here's the bottom view. I thought this was similar to Smokeyjoe's problem in the thread that Ms. Fox linked to but the underside of the leaf does not match.

Burnt tip?

BTW...the leaves on Freja feel much drier than Ms. Robinson's. After noting some of these details and reading the sticky, again, but this time looking for symptoms that are tied together I think I have an idea of what it is but I want to test the pH of the soil first because it seems that a pH imbalance is the only thing that could be causing it at this point since I have added zero nutes the entire time, just whatever was already in the FFOF. I'm thinking a potassium deficiency but at this point it's all speculation as I've never experienced any of this before, kind of like a virgin talking about sex lol.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Went to a local hydro store down the road...they had some $125 Oaktons, just slightly out of my price range. Have to make do with testing the run-off for now until I can get the pH-600. Too bad they don't list any retailers on their website so I can see if someone here has them locally...I would think they do, I live in a major city.

 

[Ms.Fox]

Is it possible you are dripping a little nute solution on the leaves when you water? That would explain the color issue.

 

[McBudz]

Went to a local hydro store down the road...they had some $125 Oaktons, just slightly out of my price range. Have to make do with testing the run-off for now until I can get the pH-600. Too bad they don't list any retailers on their website so I can see if someone here has them locally...I would think they do, I live in a major city.

eseasonsgear.com or google. I dont know of any local retailers who carry them. I only see the over priced ones in stores.

Buying a pHmeter online is not going to set off any flags.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Is it possible you are dripping a little nute solution on the leaves when you water? That would explain the color issue.

Not unless someone is secretly feeding them for me...I have only been using distilled water, nothing else at all. Since a few people have mentioned it possible being related to watering I took a close look at the patterns on the leaves and I suppose it could be from water misting but I honestly don't recall getting any water on the leaves except when it was a good bit younger. I wonder if I just maybe didn't notice it before, I'll have to go back and look at the pics I took every day and see if I can find something. When I water I am sure to do it right before the lights go out (usually within 10 minutes) and I put the mouth of the container close to the soil and in between the leaves, tilting the pot if need be to get the water to evenly cover the soil.

Like I said...probably just a newbie concerned about nothing but then again I like to know what is going on too (I blame it on my technical background). At this point I think I'm just going to have to wait and watch until I get that pH meter. *sigh* Wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have to sit and stare at them all day lol Thanks for putting up with all the pics, hard to describe without them though.

 

[Ms.Fox]

It's not a problem at all. ;-)

 

[Lil Neutrino]

I went back and looked at the high-res photos on my big ol' 50" monitor (hard to miss details when the pics are THAT big lol) that I took a few days ago on the fifth and I see no sign of the current damage. Since the pH imbalance issue I mentioned was two weeks ago and it didn't show up in those pics now I'm a bit more sure that some stray water got on to the leaves and burned them. The last time I watered I watered them an hour before the lights went off to see if they might prefer that. Maybe I somehow got some splash on the leaves and didn't notice...and as I mentioned before I did mist them at some point in the last few days.

Until I get my meter I'll consider this a closed case...if my pH levels are out of whack I'll post more details though. You guys and gal rock!

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Well...got my pH meter today and since the plants are having nap-time I figured I'd double-check the calibration (spot on) and test the distilled water I have. Turns out the distilled water is 7.7...now I REALLY want to check the soil!

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Ok, disregard my last post...I was on a learning curve with that meter.

The distilled water was 7.1, so is my tap water but who knows what kind of garbage is in THAT. My last soil run-off was 6.8 so not too bad. See my journal for the most recent pics.

30+ hours after watering yesterday I have noticed that Freja's pot is just as heavy as it was yesterday whereas Ms. Robinson's is noticeably lighter. The only thing I have been able to find that would hinder water absorption is excessive salt levels but I find it very odd that considering all three plants have had the exact same treatment since day one that one is suddenly experiencing elevated salt levels. ESPECIALLY when you consider I have added absolutely zero, zilch, nada, no nutrients and they've been feeding solely off of what was in the FFOF soil.

So, fearing that the roots would begin to have a lack of good ol' O2 I sterilized a screwdriver with 70% isopropyl alcohol and aerated the soil in both pots of the larger plants.

However even though there is a lack of water absorption with Freja she does not appear over-watered, no drooping leaves or anything. Someone else pointed out to me (I'll leave them nameless, if they want to make it known they can post here ) that it almost appears like I have an iron deficiency due to the lime green color of the new growth and some other things. However, the new growth has been this color on all three plants the entire time and as it gets a little older it turns a normal shade of green.

Then after wracking their brain some more they were reminded of a post where wild pH swings would cause similar symptoms with the spotting and drooping. Now my question, which I posed to them as well, is since my pH has been steady the last two weeks would the high pH I experienced for a few days after transplanting at the one week mark just now be showing up? As I mentioned this seems to be affecting the older fan leaves only, the new growth appears to be fine.

I'm still not spazzing out but am very curious as to what is causing my current issues. As I mentioned in my journal it's almost like some of the leaves were experiencing burn/high heat issues but since I'm using CFL's I find that hard to believe. I can usually hold the bulbs and I have sensitive fingers when it comes to heat and am able to hold my hand right underneath them for a long period without becoming uncomfortable.

Things that make you go hmmm, indeed!

 

[Ms.Fox]

As long as the new growth looks good, then you should be good. Your case is very puzzling for me. lol... Which doesn't happen much. ;-)

 

[drdanks]

looks like water spots left behind from watering under the light.