LED Lighting

[devilish]

Ok so I am looking to move to LED lighting in the near future, Hopefully...Now I have seen the Mars II, Dominator 2X XL, the Budmaster II and a few other top brands...Does anyone know how they compare to each other because the prices are such an insane difference, especially with the Budmaster II G.O.D. light...

Anyways...Upon doing some serious research into LED Lights, most use either Cree or Osris. Now if I was to buy Cree LED's and Build my own LED light. Using what little info I can find out about light spectrums plants use...Most bulk resellers of Cree or Osiris LED's don't allow you to purchase under say 1000 units...Now a Cree CLP6-Red LED at 2.4v, 50ma and 624nm (3550 - 7100 lumens) costs $0.48 each. now that is $480 just for the red end of the spectrum...The CLP6 is only available in Red or Amber. So now I have to locate the other spectrums in non Cree because they pretty much only offer white, red and amber wavelengths. There are some blue but not in the same model....but this isn't the point of this post lol.......

Irregardless a lot of people complain about the price of LED lighting. Look at it this way...even if a well known manufacturer of quality LED grow lighting made a deal with Cree or Osiris and are getting a 50% price cut...that is still a good amount of $ into just the LED modules. Not including the Case, the Electronics, the Fans, the research into wavelengths that work efficiently, the heat dissipation research, etc....All of the top makers are using great heat sinks, top brand LED's, metal cases and a decent warranty an their products. People need to Realize if you want a quality product than you have to pay for it. Some people keep using the cheap LED's from china or wherever and wonder why they aren't outproducing their HID system. Go with quality LIGHT and your harvest will show the difference. Yes LED lighting is still in its infancy but has an ass load of potential. So please to the ones using the cheapest units they can find, stop bitching. You get what you pay for. There are a plethora of people out there that have done tests with the top brands of LED and have proven that they out perform an HID system. Do your research and do it well before making false statements on good quality equipment.

 

[Hosebomber]

Ok, before people start reading this and getting too far into it... You're wrong. The diodes you are referring to are 3 to 5 lumens 3550-7100 mcd or micro candles. Secondly, you can purchase cut rolls of almost any diode in the world. I've posted linked to them a number of times. If you are looking for something special. let me know and I'll find you a supplier regardless of the quantity you need.

Yes, the initial cost for the development of a light is in the tens of thousands of dollars, I can vouch for that. However, most panel sellers simply call one of the 7 or 8 Chinese panel makers and have them brand one for them with a min order of 50-100 panels at a cost of about $7500 or so depending on the number and extent of modifications.

 

[devilish]

Ok, before people start reading this and getting too far into it... You're wrong. The diodes you are referring to are 3 to 5 lumens 3550-7100 mcd or micro candles. Secondly, you can purchase cut rolls of almost any diode in the world. I've posted linked to them a number of times. If you are looking for something special. let me know and I'll find you a supplier regardless of the quantity you need.

Yes, the initial cost for the development of a light is in the tens of thousands of dollars, I can vouch for that. However, most panel sellers simply call one of the 7 or 8 Chinese panel makers and have them brand one for them with a min order of 50-100 panels at a cost of about $7500 or so depending on the number and extent of modifications.

I missed the mcd part when I typed this up. Im not saying I cannot purchase a cut roll but I was looking at the Cree website and going off of the location I gave them and used the distributors they referred. I don't care where they get their panels. That isn't what this post was about. It was about people bashing the LED in general...Now as far as the 3-5 Lumen LED. You are wrong on that also. 3550 mcd at a 120* angle is 11 lumens, and 7100 mcd at 120* angle is 22 lumens, these figures are estimated using a conversion calculator. But that still isn't the point! The entire point of this was people complaining about the high price of LED Grow lights! I was merely posting this to help shed some light on the cost that actually went into making a High Quality LED grow light. It had nothing to do with where manufacturers got their panels or where they got their LED modules or the exact specifications of said LED modules. It was merely an example. Where and how they get their stuff is up to them and their prices usually reflect that. If you are buying lower quality cheaper goods then your final product will be priced accordingly as will the end products performance. This goes for everything! not just LED LIGHTING! but this isnt a pissing contest. Thank you for the correction on the MCD part.

 

[devilish]

so for example an LED that says it puts out 100,000 Lumens...By your calculations of 3-5 lumen LED's, would require a bare minimum of 20,000 5 lumen LED's....So based on your calculations of 3-5 lumen LED's then a 400 LED Grow Light is only putting out 1200-2000 lumens? And this is based solely on the CLP6 LED from Cree. Now the XLamp ML-E is available in a larger range of spectrums and puts out up to 58lm at 0.5W. The Xlamp MX-3 puts out up to 152 lm at 2w but is only available in white. Now the XLamp MC-E is available in multiple wavelengths and puts out up to 751 lm at 9w...But regardless, I do not know what LED's each manufacturer uses, what I do know is for a 650w LED light to put out 100,000 lumens and it has 400 LED's, each LED needs to be pushing out a bare minimum of 250 lumens at 1.6w...Thats damn near impossible. What is more likely is that the vast majority of the LED's are high lumen output at a higher wattage and then they have some spectrums at a lower lumen lower wattage. I dont know I just know that from the Cree Website I cannot find a single LED module that has that High of a Lumen Output at such a low wattage. But please, I implore someone to learn me! I'm not bashing LED's either. I just know a lot goes into them financially, well for a good one that is, and this post was only meant to enlighten those that did not understand.

 

[devilish]

Right I understand that but looking at LED module manufacturers or even the vast majority of LED Grow light manufacturers, they provide light Intensity information VIA lumens not PAR or umoles. So really it is hard for any of us, as a consumer, to gauge light via PAR values that no one divulges. and Lumens is the measurement of light within 400-1000nm where PAR is 400-700nm. Am I correct? I do my research, Im not throwing bogus shit out there. But there are so many misleading informational sites out there I was just trying to shed some light on what went into a quality LED lighting system.

 

[Hosebomber]

Ok a few corrections for people reading and devilish. Lumens are a measurement of visible light measuring from 380nm to 760nm. It is skewed to 525nm which is the optimal wavelength for human sight (also why night vision goggles are green). PAR is the measurement of all photons between 400 and 700 nm. PAR is not skewed at all and is a direct reading of the number of photons in a square meter in molars or most commonly micro molars abbreviated umols.

As for top quality diodes, you are looking for Cree XM-L/XM-L2, XP-E/XP-E2, of the CXA CoB series... Phillips Luxeon Rebel and Rebel ES series, The Everlight Shuen or Shwo series, and the Osram Oslon series SSL and Bridgelux Vero COB's. Bridgelux has not produced a new or upgraded 30x30 thru 45x45 diode in over 3 years... so bridgelux tech in the smaller diodes is lacking and mostly produced by licensed Chinese facilities almost exclusively now.

As for the grade A binning... all epistar diodes are bin A something
They use A1 thru A4 as their binning grades... could you be a little more specific?

 

[devilish]

I disagree with you on the wavelength of light that you state above. A Lumen is the measurement of TOTAL amount of light emitted from a source. Not just what the average human eye can detect, which is between 390nm and 700nm. But Various sources define visible light as narrowly as 420nm to 680nm to as broadly as 380nm to 800 nm. Under ideal laboratory conditions, people can see infrared up to at least 1050 nm, children and young adults ultraviolet down to about 310 to 313 nm. So because of this we have to broaden the range. But irregardless...most people dont care lol...

 

[devilish]

This is especially true since the most visible spectrum of light to the human eye is around 550nm (green) light. As we all (should) know by now, that's exactly the region that is virtually invisible to plants.

I just wanted to make a quick point on this. I agree that that range or wavelength of light is VIRTUALLY invisible to the plants but it is actually slightly beneficial as well.

"Chlorophyll, the most abundant plant pigment, is most efficient in capturing red and blue light. Accessory pigments such as carotenes and xanthophylls harvest some green light and pass it on to the photosynthetic process, but enough of the green wavelengths are reflected to give leaves their characteristic color. An exception to the predominance of chlorophyll is autumn, when chlorophyll is degraded (because it contains N and Mg) but the accessory pigments are not (because they only contain C, H and O) and remain in the leaf producing red, yellow and orange leaves."

Just a small tidbit of info. Im not saying that green light is needed nor good for any plant but it is used to an extent.

 

[Hapo]

...yea, I was torn between the four 450's and two 1200's until I considered that all I needed to do was spend a little more for an Ideal Solution...

...it was pointed out that one ounce of improvement would just aboot pay for the difference. ..

 

[Mars Hydro]

 

[devilish]

The use of secondary lenses cost at least 7% efficiency. That is a best case scenario. Real world application is closer to 10% to 12%. If you are using 60 degree diodes as you claimed previously The use of the secondary lenses is simply a reduction in you photon output. I'm guessing they are actually 60 degree half viewing angle (aka 120 degree Lambertain pattern dispersion).

I agree that a secondary lenses does cost efficiency but at the same time it makes improvements.

-The purpose of the secondary optic is to increase the relative luminous intensity. An example is the Fraen 8 degree optic that can actually increase the intensity of the LED 27 times.

-Besides the obvious advantage of achieving more light from the same number of LEDs, for deeper penetration, the addition of a secondary optic will greatly benefit the light penetration.

-For greater light penetration, the extra light penetration provided by the secondary optic overrides enough of their disadvantages to warrant their use.

-Increased PAR values over beam angle, great for deep penetration

-Ability to choose from a variety of optic angles and mix an match

-Choice of optics to offset light hanging height

-Can use wider optics for shallower penetration without sacrificing too much PAR

-Wider optics also prevent spotlighting and burning

-If you want to make an adjustment, simple change out the optic, no soldering needed (Something ALL LED grow light manufacturers should consider?)

not that there aren't cons either...

-A secondary Lens can add 25-50% of the LED cost.

-Secondary lenses create the "Flashlight" effect. Meaning everything out of the cone of light is dark, there isn't a smooth transition between what is illuminated and what isnt. It is a very quick light falloff.

-They hinder Color blending (Closer to the LED, the farther away the less prominent individual colors become depending on the lense used)

Optimum LED Density should be roughly 24 LEDs per square foot for 10 to 12 inches of penetration, 36 per square foot or 12 to 18 inches of penetration and 48 per square foot for 18 to 24 inches of penetration.

Granted these figures and facts are all from LED aquarium lights for growing coral but the general rules will still apply for growing anything under LED's.

 

[ibaba]

interesting points there techead and you def have a point about lenses reaching further down. In my own light i have them naked because that means I can put the lights only a few inches above the plants - like 1" to 2" and with lenses I could not get that close because on a 60º or 90º the footprint at that height was tiny. Because the primary lens is 120º if you dont put them that close you loose a lot from the sides!

 

[wizgrow]

I'm not trying to sell anything to anybody, but I would not waste money on a light without secondary optics. I put in lenses on my panel, but I didn't have them at first. It is just unbelievable how much more light you get down to the bottom with lenses compared to not having them. I didn't waste space though, my LED panel is almost wall to wall, and I used 60 deg, and 30 deg lenses, 30 deg on all the 3 watt deep red, and 60 deg on all of the 5 watt leds. Don't both asking what kind of light, I built it myself. You can read about it on another thread. To the nay sayers on lenses saying you loose 7 to 15%, or whatever. Think about what % of your light money is painted on your wall, or flying off into space.

does this apply to SCROG as well? Only just finished my first runs in 2 different tents and neither got growth 12 " above the screen. But I think that was also a yield issue in denying more vertical growth. Using a 1200 Mars in the center and 4 48 reflectors in each corner of a 5x5.

 

[Techhead]

Just my opinion wizgrow. Did you check out my pictures on my home made power led thread, that's on a SCROG as well. I've tried out my lights without the lenses, and with the lenses. There is not just a difference, but a big difference. I have seen pictures of Mars units, and I don't think they have secondary optics, but it does look like they left a lot of room around there LED's. I wounder if some of those 4 legged lenses Mouser and Digi-Key have could be stuck on there. I don't know if they could or not, what I do know is it will narrow your lighting footprint, so sacrifices would be made.

 

[Defeeter]

Ok, before people start reading this and getting too far into it... You're wrong. The diodes you are referring to are 3 to 5 lumens 3550-7100 mcd or micro candles. Secondly, you can purchase cut rolls of almost any diode in the world. I've posted linked to them a number of times. If you are looking for something special. let me know and I'll find you a supplier regardless of the quantity you need.

Yes, the initial cost for the development of a light is in the tens of thousands of dollars, I can vouch for that. However, most panel sellers simply call one of the 7 or 8 Chinese panel makers and have them brand one for them with a min order of 50-100 panels at a cost of about $7500 or so depending on the number and extent of modifications.

so whats the site to go to order everything you need to build a good light?

 

[brewbeer]

There are a few. You need to dig around for good components; and keep your eyes peeled for good prices.