Is top dressing a phosphorus source effective?

[Phillybonker]

Phosphorus takes a long time to move though the soil and I was wondering if I top dress a dry amendment for my phosphorus source wouldn't it take months/years to work it's way down to where the roots would be?

 

[garybo]

@Phillybonker , good seeing you.
I would think if you added phosphorus in liquid form into the soil, it should reach the roots in a matter of moments.

 

[SmokingWings]

Phosphorus takes a long time to move though the soil

Not sure if this is a mis-understanding or not. Usually what I hear/read being mentioned is that Phosphorous sources often take months to break down enough, either by dissolving or by the action of microbes, before the nutrient is available to the plant. Once that nutrient is water soluble it is then available and it can move through the soil as fast as the available water. The solid or unprocessed particles of the Phosphate source can take years to move through the top couple of inches of soil unless a gardener works the soil over to distribute the source into the top foot or two of soil.

If the source is worked into the top couple of inches of soil as part of the top-dressing then as long as the soil is moist enough to support the microbes they will be processing and making the Phosphorous available. Every time it rains or the gardener waters the area then the water moving through the soil will carry some of the water soluble nutrient deeper into the soil where more of the plant roots can take it in.

Bonus is that at the same time the plant already does have some feeder roots up near the surface and those can also pick up some of the nutrient without having to wait until normal movement pulls it down the several inches or several feet to the rest of the roots.

The finer the source of Phosphorous is ground up the faster the Phosphorous itself can become available.

Have you found a new location for this year's plants?

 

[Roy Growin]

Fish, blood & bone meal dissolves down to the roots within a day or two when watered in once or twice

 

[SmokingWings]

Fish, blood & bone meal dissolves down to the roots within a day or two when watered in once or twice

Fish and blood meal are quickly available.

Bone meal is the one that can take months depending on how finely it is ground up. That amount of time is one of the reasons that gardeners planting spring bulbs will mix the bone meal into the soil in the fall when they put the bulbs in. The minerals and the phosphorous are starting to become available in the spring when the bulbs start pushing out their roots.

If @Phillybonker is still growing outside and back in the bush then he is probably still facing a situation where he has to haul in water which is not practical because it draws attention. Or, he has to rely on a nearby stream which might dry up before summer. Guerilla style grows and all that..

 

[Phillybonker]

@Phillybonker , good seeing you.
I would think if you added phosphorus in liquid form into the soil, it should reach the roots in a matter of moments.

That does make sense and phosphorus in a liquid form is something I'll consider. Thanks for the advice

 

[Phillybonker]

Not sure if this is a mis-understanding or not. Usually what I hear/read being mentioned is that Phosphorous sources often take months to break down enough, either by dissolving or by the action of microbes, before the nutrient is available to the plant. Once that nutrient is water soluble it is then available and it can move through the soil as fast as the available water. The solid or unprocessed particles of the Phosphate source can take years to move through the top couple of inches of soil unless a gardener works the soil over to distribute the source into the top foot or two of soil.

If the source is worked into the top couple of inches of soil as part of the top-dressing then as long as the soil is moist enough to support the microbes they will be processing and making the Phosphorous available. Every time it rains or the gardener waters the area then the water moving through the soil will carry some of the water soluble nutrient deeper into the soil where more of the plant roots can take it in.

Bonus is that at the same time the plant already does have some feeder roots up near the surface and those can also pick up some of the nutrient without having to wait until normal movement pulls it down the several inches or several feet to the rest of the roots.

The finer the source of Phosphorous is ground up the faster the Phosphorous itself can become available.

I could never get my head around Phosphorous, but I'm slowly getting there. What I understand you're saying is Phosphorous sources can often take months to break down but once that has happened then the nutrient Phosphorous is mobile (and available to the plant) in soil as soon as it is water soluble. Got it. Thanks

Have you found a new location for this year's plants?

I use multiple locations, one spot I've got is in a forestry block...

View media item 1879467
Even though the location looks dry, all that wood waste acts like mulch and keeps the soil really moist, the spot gets 10 hours direct sunlight right throughout the grow which is as good as it gets in this sort of terrain.

Another spot I'm looking at is located in the industrial area of a city but I'll do another visit this weekend to decide whether I'll grow there or not.

A third location I'm considering is in bushland but it's quite a long drive from home so we'll see.

 

[Phillybonker]

Fish, blood & bone meal dissolves down to the roots within a day or two when watered in once or twice

Fish just happens to be one of my Phosphorus sources so that's good to hear that it dissolves fast, watering is problematic but luckily rain is never too far away in my area.

 

[Roy Growin]

Fish just happens to be one of my Phosphorus sources so that's good to hear that it dissolves fast, watering is problematic but luckily rain is never too far away in my area.

As I understand it, the fish is for N, the blood for P, the bone for K but s'pose it depends exactly what you have

 

[Phillybonker]

If @Phillybonker is still growing outside and back in the bush then he is probably still facing a situation where he has to haul in water which is not practical because it draws attention. Or, he has to rely on a nearby stream which might dry up before summer. Guerilla style grows and all that..

Hauling water to these new grow spots will be problematic for varies reasons - large number of plants to water, water sources are some distance away, infrequent visits to the grow spots for stealth reasons or because of the long travelling distances.

 

[Phillybonker]

As I understand it, the fish is for N, the blood for P, the bone for K but s'pose it depends exactly what you have

The fish meal I have is NPK: 10 - 3.8 - 05

I'll look into other P sources as well.

 

[Roy Growin]

The fish meal I have is NPK: 10 - 3.8 - 05

I'll look into other P sources as well.

The off the shelf stuff here is 5-8-6 so have a good look around for the powder
A load of frass might help too

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Phosphorus takes a long time to move though the soil and I was wondering if I top dress a dry amendment for my phosphorus source wouldn't it take months/years to work it's way down to where the roots would be?

Ah, I am sure P - phosphorus is one of the macro nutrients or major nutrient plants use to grow in the NPK range !

Which should be reasonable mobile but in what context either being liquid or granule form ?


Is another debate all together



How ever after viewing recent pic's of soil conditions is do you understand that random plot of land or related weather conditions to do a gorilla grow

 

[Phillybonker]

Ah, I am sure P - phosphorus is one of the macro nutrients or major nutrient plants use to grow in the NPK range !

Which should be reasonable mobile but in what context either being liquid or granule form ?


Is another debate all together

I won't entirely rule out using liquid form if I have to but granule form will be easier for me to apply as it doesn't need to be diluted in water first, as carrying water to my grow spots is problematic.

How ever after viewing recent pic's of soil conditions is do you understand that random plot of land or related weather conditions to do a gorilla grow

I'll be visiting that plot of land this weekend to start prepping, so I'll be able to take a closer look at the soil conditions.

 

[Pat Puffer]

You can make a sort of super soil up there with dry amendments. For a hands off approach you need quick release and slow release amendments to keep your gorilla grow as hands off as possible.

I would mix my dry amendments in to the soil about 1-2 months ahead of time and only use a drip irrigation all grow season; although you may need to water them more than we may expect given the spot.

Check my signature for a couple of my grow journals. I only got a couple on here as I showed up late to the party, and I have currently hung it up for the time being.

If interested let me know and I can dig up my recipe again if you would like to know the stuff to use.

Guano is a quick release and bone meal is a slow release.

 

[Pat Puffer]

Alfalfa meal (quick release N)
Feather Meal (slow release N)
Bat guano (quick release P)
Bone meal (slow release P)
Rock phosphate (slow release P + Calcium)
Kelp Meal (quick release K)
Langbeinite (slow release K + Magnesium)

That about covered it all if used in appropriate proportions. Sorry I had to jog my memory.

 

[Phillybonker]

You can make a sort of super soil up there with dry amendments. For a hands off approach you need quick release and slow release amendments to keep your gorilla grow as hands off as possible.

I would mix my dry amendments in to the soil about 1-2 months ahead of time and only use a drip irrigation all grow season; although you may need to water them more than we may expect given the spot.

Check my signature for a couple of my grow journals. I only got a couple on here as I showed up late to the party, and I have currently hung it up for the time being.

If interested let me know and I can dig up my recipe again if you would like to know the stuff to use.

Guano is a quick release and bone meal is a slow release.

Thanks for the advice, I'll have a read through your journals as I've still got a few more weeks till I'll have plants out, so I'm always looking to learn as much as possible.

 

[Phillybonker]

Alfalfa meal (quick release N)
Feather Meal (slow release N)
Bat guano (quick release P)
Bone meal (slow release P)
Rock phosphate (slow release P + Calcium)
Kelp Meal (quick release K)
Langbeinite (slow release K + Magnesium)

That about covered it all if used in appropriate proportions. Sorry I had to jog my memory.

Thanks for the recipe, I never actually thought of using quick release and slow release ferts together. I have seen recipes that use two different sources for each macronutrient and always wondered why people use two sources, I now I have my answer - one slow release and one quick release source.

 

[Pat Puffer]

I wouldn't treat my journal(s) as the gospel. There isn't much to learn. It's all pretty hands off with no problems until I make my lactobacillus. Then I over use it and have to foliar feed kelp to get my plants through.

 

[garybo]

That does make sense and phosphorus in a liquid form is something I'll consider. Thanks for the advice

Nutrients can be bought in power form. I get mine from npk industries. It can be added to and with your liquid food. They have a great feeding chart to gauge your feeding on.