Is N a problem?

Bush Doctor 77

Bush Doctor 77

Well-Known Member
I've always acted under the idea that I want to minimize the total N in my bud. I don't like having nitrogen oxidation products(NO2, NO3, nitrosamines???) in my body. I've also heard/read that nitrogen inhibits combustion in cannabis. These are main reasons I do flush before harvest. Taste is secondary, and I am not convinced that there is an impact on taste by flushing. Am I doing any harm by flushing?
 
On flushing. It's for folks that grow in a soil-LESS medium. So if you are in a soil-less medium flush away.

As far as flushing removing any excess N in the PLANT, that's not possible. It's impossible actually. It's not biologically, chemically or physically possible to remove any molecules or compounds from a plant by running water thru the roots.

Thats just not how plants grow. If you want cleaner burning tasting cannabis try growing in organic soil. The plant will only uptake what's needed and not any excess of anything even tho there could be a lot of or excess soil organic matter (that includes N) it will stay in the soil until the plant needs it.
 
bobrown14 said:
On flushing. It's for folks that grow in a soil-LESS medium. So if you are in a soil-less medium flush away.

As far as flushing removing any excess N in the PLANT, that's not possible. It's impossible actually. It's not biologically, chemically or physically possible to remove any molecules or compounds from a plant by running water thru the roots.

Thats just not how plants grow. If you want cleaner burning tasting cannabis try growing in organic soil. The plant will only uptake what's needed and not any excess of anything even tho there could be a lot of or excess soil organic matter (that includes N) it will stay in the soil until the plant needs it.
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By removing N from the media, won't the buds canabalize the N rich leaves(fade), and consume the N already present in the plant? I don't flush the plants I grow organically in soil, outdoors.
 
Flushing is the process of removing leftover nutrients from the soil of your marijuana plants with neutral water. Water is an incredibly powerful element, and it can do wonders for your marijuana plants beyond simply your feeding regiment. It can flush away leftover nutrients and minerals, allowing the soil and plants to be fresh again.
Taking away the minerals may sound like a negative thing to do at first, but in fact, it is an incredibly helpful thing. Flushing out minerals paves the way for the roots of your plants to take in any remaining nutrients still in the soil.

Much like people or animals, it’s a way of “starving” the plants so it absorbs any fat that was left over and can be used for energy. The hard part is to time it right. You need to flush your marijuana plants at a short enough time before the harvest that the plants don’t have enough time to start becoming unhealthy.
You should flush your marijuana plants before the harvest because it will allow the buds to become smoother and higher quality. However, if you are an impatient person or aren’t good at this kind of thing, you may want to either reconsider or take extra time to plan it carefully. This is because, when timed wrong, a flush can actually have a negative effect on your marijuana plants, thus lowering the yield at the end.

The main aspect of flushing is to improve the taste of your cured marijuana. There is often a “chemical” taste with lots of marijuana, and that means there were too many nutrients at the point of harvest and the grower didn’t flush (or at least they didn’t flush properly). If you flush, however, there will only be the pure taste of the marijuana and it will even be a smoother smoke. :rollit: :passitleft:
 
Well sure you can remove "some" excess N from soil by flushing.

By some it depends on your Soil Organic Matter and your CEC. If you have excess or high amounts of both you wont be physically able to remove much N or any nutrients from the soil.

The way to tell is of course a soil test but you can tell if your soil is either sandy or loamy by look, feel and smell. If its dark and not loose its got more SOM and if you grow outside its likely got a decent amount of CEC (comes from the clay layer under the soil).

Basically if you soil is SANDY and not very good you could flush out excess N that is in a soluble form.

Here's the thing, plants dont use much N in flower. They use N in VEG.

If you want your plant to use up the nutrients already stored in the leaves then yes you are right - water for the win. Those stored nutrients in the leaves are not N tho its Chlorophyll. When chlorophyll gets broken down (leaves turn yellow) by the plant they are sugars. The breakdown process is well above my pay grade.

There is N in chlorophyll and its for sure an important part of senescence but there wont be any "excess" N.

My opinion on excess N comes in the form of EXTRA leaves or more green plant parts. Plants can grow more leaves than flowers if there's excess soluble N in the soil.

Key point is SOLUBLE Nitrogen.
 
@cal45 what you say about flushing soil is some made up stuff someone wrote about and therefor it must be true.

It is not.

Here's why:

Soil is made up of soil organic matter and Cations (nutrients).

The cations have a charge associated with then on the molecular level.

Like a magnet they attract to particles in the soil (soil organic matter).


Water has neither a negative or positive charge so when those cations are attached to the soil particles it's not physically possible to break those bonds that are formed with water.

How does water with neither a positive or negative charge attract nutrients (cations)??

It doesn't, it wont, it can't and no amount of water will change physics and chemistry.

About the only nutrient you can flush from soil is EXCESS soluble N.

If you have a proper soil, you wont be able to flush excess soluble N very easily (meaning A LOT OF WATER).

In a soil-LESS medium what you say is true but not in SOIL.
 
cal45 said:
The main aspect of flushing is to improve the taste of your cured marijuana. There is often a “chemical” taste with lots of marijuana, and that means there were too many nutrients at the point of harvest and the grower didn’t flush (or at least they didn’t flush properly). If you flush, however, there will only be the pure taste of the marijuana and it will even be a smoother smoke. :rollit: :passitleft:
Click to expand...


What you are saying is that if we run water thru the soil it will somehow extract the excess [insert chemical here] out of the plants flowers??

Not physically possible. That would defy all logic, physics, chemistry and biology.

Its obvious you feel strongly about this, where did you get your information from??
 
Its obvious you feel stronger about this then me, I was just stating how it's not a bad thing to flush. You clearly know what you are talking about on a scientific level and maybe you just need to smoke something. Lol
What Is Flushing And Who Should Do It?

Before we get into the reasons why flushing your plants is so important, we need to understand exactly what it is. Flushing involves watering your plants without any added nutrients for a period of time — anywhere from a day or two to a week or more, depending on your growing medium — prior to harvesting. The purpose of this is to allow the plants time to use up the nutrients that have already built up within them, thereby lessening the overall nutrient and contaminant load of the final product.

We recommend flushing for growers of all types, whether hydro, coco coir or soil — though the time period for flushing will vary, depending on the medium.


The Importance Of Flushing

Though some in the industry have argued otherwise, the importance of flushing your plants has been affirmed by the vast majority of serious growers. Most experienced cultivators have tried not flushing before harvest, which has caused them to experience first-hand the glaring difference in quality of the yield.You see, during the growing cycle, your plants store excess amounts of nutrients, salts and other compounds. If you don’t allow the plants a chance to dispose of these surplus compounds by flushing them before harvest, your final product will be much harsher and more bitter tasting. Failing to flush can also cause your product to suffer from other negative side effects, such as black ash and an unpleasant chemical taste and smell.

The truth is, not flushing nutrients before harvest can seriously compromise the quality of your high-value crops.


To Flush Or Not To Flush: Examining The Arguments For And Against

Despite the overwhelming majority of growers who understand the importance of flushing and have verified its benefits through their own practice, there are some who argue against it.

The anti-flushers make a few bold claims, including:

  1. Robbing plants of nutrients at any stage of the grow cycle is counterproductive and does not benefit growth in any way.
  2. Once nutrients are absorbed into the plant tissues, they are there permanently. The plant cannot expel them or use them up simply by denying it more nutrients.
  3. If flushing was in fact a beneficial practice, then plants grown in hydro would always taste better than plants grown in soil because soil cannot be effectively flushed.
  4. Withholding nutrients causes stress to the plants, which impedes growth rather than encouraging it.
  5. Flushing plants is “pseudoscience” that has not been supported or backed by any legitimate scientific studies.

Let’s address these anti-flushing arguments one by one.

  1. Flushing your plants does not involve robbing them off nutrients. On the contrary, it allows your plants the chance to use the excess nutrients they have accumulated throughout the grow cycle. When you feed your crops full nutrient loads right up until the time of harvest, they retain an overabundance of compounds that affect the quality of the final product — including its taste, smell and overall smoothness.It’s also important to note that the main purpose behind flushing is not to encourage substantial new growth — although, flushing can cause your crop’s floral blooms to swell, since plants are not expelling all their energy on nutrient uptake.
  2. Any grower who has experienced nutrient burn knows the argument that plants cannot expel excess nutrients holds no weight. Ask any seasoned cultivator how to fix nutrient burn and they will tell you: You need to flush your plants and allow them time to use up the excess nutrients.The same logic applies to pre-harvest flushing. You’re giving your plants just enough time to use up surplus nutrients, salts and other compounds.
  3. The argument that soil can’t be effectively flushed is simply illogical and just plain wrong. Plants grown in soil can be flushed — it just takes a longer period of time than flushing plants grown in hydro or coco.
  4. It’s true that withholding nutrients places stress on plants and causes them to increase defense compounds. However, in certain plants, the primary defense compounds are actually the most desirable constituents, so flushing before harvest can significantly increase the value of the final product.
  5. At Advanced Nutrients, we employ the largest team of Ph.D. botanists, microbiologists, entomologists, hormone specialists and organic chemists in the industry. These scientists are dedicated solely to studying cultivation best practices and are constantly conducting laboratory research. The notion that plant flushing is “pseudoscience” is simply absurd.
 
Yes I am well aware of this long time discussion.

Calling watering is now flushing ok.

You flush and I will water. Likely the only difference is the amount of water being used.

I see you posted what looks to be an article. Where and whom wrote that?

So I use nothing but water thru-out my grow. How does that work with what you posted above?? I must be doing something wrong?

How can water only to grow plants work if what that article states is true?

There's just no science there. I would even bet a gold dollar there's something being sold here. Could be a book, some special "flushing Sauce" something is for sale. What is it?

I'm not buying.

BTW - flushing excess N from soil or soil-less is a form of water pollution. How come that is never mentioned in this flushing story?

Edit:
The notion that plant flushing is “science” is simply absurd.

See I wrote that so it must be true. I read about it in high times.

Oh yeah that comes from Advanced Nutrients. So something is for sale.

I'm now wondering why all my farmer neighbors arent out there "flushing" corn crops. Actually they do the opposite. But thats just the folks that grow your food. They must be stupid farmers.
 
Anything "flushed" out of coco just starves the plant right at the time the buds are fattening.
So the plant can cannibalize itself taking mobile nutrients which goes straight to the BUD.
So in reality you aren't flushing anything out of the bud.
The ONLY thing that flushing does is lower the salt buildup that salt based synthetic nutrients leave in the soil, especially if you are one of those that let your soilless medium dry out between watering.
That can help nutrient uptake and transpiration but that's all it does.
If you're in LOS then you have nothing to flush.

98% of my nitrogen comes from my cover crop which is then consumed by my worms which concentrates the nutrients by something like 10x and creates black gold, Unicorn Poop.
The plants take what they need as the microbes make it useable.
 
The article that was cited is very old information and although it used to be the standard we now know thanks to modern science that there is no excess nitrogen in the plant that can somehow be washed out by flushing at the end. We now know that giving only water at the end does nothing to change the taste or smokablity of the bud, all it does is starve the plant of needed nutrients that could have helped to make the buds bigger and sweeter at the the end. There is NO scientific evidence that giving water only at the end changes anything other than the size of your buds. There are NO excess nutes stored in the buds... maybe in some of the fan leaves, but you don't smoke them anyway. Thinking that we can somehow flush out the plant, is a fallacy.
Flushing the soil however can be very helpful. This is done with a 3x the container sized flush of plain water in one setting, effectively washing salts, leftover nutes and debris out of the soil. Salt restricts nutrient uptake into the plant, and getting rid of it in the soil allows for full uptake. Many nutrient systems call for regular flushes throughout the grow, but the most important one is 2 weeks before the end of the grow, when the buds hit that final bud swelling stage where they can double in size and weight. A proper flush right before this stage allows for full uptake, and strong finishing nutes (heavy PK) should be given right up to the end to facilitate the final development of those buds. Starving the plant at the end by giving only water is just plain silly... it makes no sense at all now that we know that first you can't flush a plant, and second, a good cure gets rid of anything offensive that might still be in the bud.
Flush properly 2 weeks before the end and continue to feed/water/feed/water just as you have all through the grow. Stop working with 1970's information... this is the year 2019 and we have learned that there is a much better way to do things and because of this, we grow the best pot today that has ever been grown.
Lastly, if you feel you need to argue with me about this, consider the organic grower who is feeding their plants full time, 24/7 right up to the day of the chop. Why is it then, that this pot is considered the tastiest and strongest that you can grow, as compared to a bottle fed plant? Why do organically produced plants fully express themselves if nutrients at the end are so bad? Why doesn't it taste like crap in the bowl?
Check your premises... at least one of them is wrong.
 
bobrown14 said:
Yes I am well aware of this long time discussion.

Calling watering is now flushing ok.

You flush and I will water. Likely the only difference is the amount of water being used.

I see you posted what looks to be an article. Where and whom wrote that?

So I use nothing but water thru-out my grow. How does that work with what you posted above?? I must be doing something wrong?

How can water only to grow plants work if what that article states is true?

There's just no science there. I would even bet a gold dollar there's something being sold here. Could be a book, some special "flushing Sauce" something is for sale. What is it?

I'm not buying.

BTW - flushing excess N from soil or soil-less is a form of water pollution. How come that is never mentioned in this flushing story?

Edit:
The notion that plant flushing is “science” is simply absurd.

See I wrote that so it must be true. I read about it in high times.

Oh yeah that comes from Advanced Nutrients. So something is for sale.

I'm now wondering why all my farmer neighbors arent out there "flushing" corn crops. Actually they do the opposite. But thats just the folks that grow your food. They must be stupid farmers.
Click to expand...
Wasn't trying to make you mad guy, or give false information to anybody, Don't want you beating the shit out of the family or something worse, you're an angry fellow for a smoker, you should get it checked out. ;)
 
The bottom line for me is I believe a plant that is starved of N will have less N than a plant that has excess N available. That is true at any point of the growth cycle, and N is nasty and my main concern. I am strictly talking medias and chemical nutrients, not living soil.
 
cal45 said:
I am not selling it, here is the link CannaCon | The Nation's Leading B2B Cannabis Conference to the article that I posted, as I'm sure you read all the info that's coming out of your mouth, but you have a nice day :rollit:
Click to expand...


"Our products make it easier and less expensive for you to grow bigger and better crops.

If you want to grow the best, grow with the best.

Advanced Nutrients – home of exhaustive research, proven science, and extraordinary yields!"

I spent .... wait for it... NOTHING on fertilizers in the last 2 years. Oh wait I bought a bag of ewc and kelp meal for $18 bucks last year.

Are you working at a hydro shop?

Advanced Nutrients is soil-less based gear. That's what they do. We talking soil here!

Thanks for the info tho. Its good stuff.
 
Bush Doctor 77 said:
The bottom line for me is I believe a plant that is starved of N will have less N than a plant that has excess N available. That is true at any point of the growth cycle, and N is nasty and my main concern. I am strictly talking medias and chemical nutrients, not living soil.
Click to expand...

Your growing in soil-less media then?

There's soil and soil-less there's not another living soil thing. That is soil or is soil something else? I'm lost now.
 
cal45 said:
Wasn't trying to make you mad guy, or give false information to anybody, Don't want you beating the shit out of the family or something worse, you're an angry fellow for a smoker, you should get it checked out. ;)
Click to expand...

I'm not mad I'm simply discussing "flushing". I've had this discussion many many times. I'm surprised I even responded to this one to be honest.

There seems to be some mis-understanding with regard to how water running thru soil works. This process is what my discussion is about.

Chemistry, biology and physics play a role here. I'm not a soil scientist but I've studied physics and soil science and have grown plants in soil for many many years.

I get the folks that still want to or believe that feeding the plant is THE way to grow plants.

I'm simply here to pass along some science/fact/knowledge that seems to be missing and offer up some traditional methods of growing that have been working for 10s of thousands of years.

If you read the "knowledge" being passed along to cannabis growers on nutrients, you'd think that we hoo-mans just came out of the dark ages in the last 10 years.

There's actually some science and scientists working on plants and soil so that we can feed the world. This science can be directly used to grow cannabis. The only reason you dont see much science as it relates to cannabis growing is due to the prohibition. Now that the new Farm Bill includes Cannabis (hemp) we are now beginning to see scientists and colleges working on Cannabis cultivation.

You should begin to see many of these weird growing techniques that are only used in cannabis growing be debunked in the next year or so.

Get the college kids into growing weed and you will see some progress with regard to antiquated weed growing processes.
 

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