Is it normal for pH to lower during flower?
Vestrimatrik
New Member
In my experience it's been the other way around.
Somewhere at some point I read that if your ph goes down that means you have too much nutrient, up is too little, and stable is perfect.
Currently my res ph is stable but mine look nitrogen toxic so idk.
Let us know what you figure out.
Good luck growing
Somewhere at some point I read that if your ph goes down that means you have too much nutrient, up is too little, and stable is perfect.
Currently my res ph is stable but mine look nitrogen toxic so idk.
Let us know what you figure out.
Good luck growing
That's how it happens. I cured it by switching to a pH buffered nutrient line, but I'm a lazy grower. I haven't checked pH in months. Look for VilliageIdiot's writing in here about dwc. He explains it very well if you're interested in learning there where's and whys. If we're lucky he'll see this and chime in.
So actually pH is one factor and it can go up or down, depends on many things. I have the same issue that is goes in one direction while in veg and the other in bloom.
Before we can really diagnose it we would need more data to know if there is a problem. Three days of pH, PPM, Top off rates, Res uptake rates and we should be able to know what is going on.
It could be just fine and you are over adjusting it. The good zone is between about 5.5 and 6.3. That means in this zone we would not want to adjust it. adjusting it to 5.8 when it is 6.2 is bad on the roots and reduces uptake for a while. The plant is in control of the res pH. If the plant is taking on nutes it will adjust the pH where it needs to be to get the nutes it needs. In a healthy res the pH will fluctuate up and down in the good zone which aids in various uptake rates. So as long as it is in the good zone we do not adjust it and let the plant control the res to what it likes. If the res is healthy it will not shoot off. I can go many weeks just topping off and the res is fine.
Now if it gets to say 5.4 and is still dropping, that is when we adjust it and bring it up and it if it wont stabilize then we have a problem. It could be an infection or some other thing and at that time we may want to take some drastic actions like purging and sterilizing the system or adding in a huge amount of beneficial bacteria to clean it up.
More likely it is nothing to see here.
Adding symbiotic fungi usually helps this because some of the nute uptake is "buffered".
If it is shoots off the chart in one direction or another then there is likely a problem. If there is decent uptake and it is just dropping a little each day then likely you need to increase the concentration.
Before we can really diagnose it we would need more data to know if there is a problem. Three days of pH, PPM, Top off rates, Res uptake rates and we should be able to know what is going on.
It could be just fine and you are over adjusting it. The good zone is between about 5.5 and 6.3. That means in this zone we would not want to adjust it. adjusting it to 5.8 when it is 6.2 is bad on the roots and reduces uptake for a while. The plant is in control of the res pH. If the plant is taking on nutes it will adjust the pH where it needs to be to get the nutes it needs. In a healthy res the pH will fluctuate up and down in the good zone which aids in various uptake rates. So as long as it is in the good zone we do not adjust it and let the plant control the res to what it likes. If the res is healthy it will not shoot off. I can go many weeks just topping off and the res is fine.
Now if it gets to say 5.4 and is still dropping, that is when we adjust it and bring it up and it if it wont stabilize then we have a problem. It could be an infection or some other thing and at that time we may want to take some drastic actions like purging and sterilizing the system or adding in a huge amount of beneficial bacteria to clean it up.
More likely it is nothing to see here.
Adding symbiotic fungi usually helps this because some of the nute uptake is "buffered".
If it is shoots off the chart in one direction or another then there is likely a problem. If there is decent uptake and it is just dropping a little each day then likely you need to increase the concentration.
At some point you will want to purge anyway. I have a friend who does fast runs and doesn't purge his water just tops off. I wont do that I have a few purges myself. I think Rifleman chooses the "lazy" route which is very common (and requires more elbow grease!) which is to pay up for AN and dump each week.
AN has buffers that work for about 5 days. So if you dump weekly you only have to worry about it being a normal res for 2 days. And the way it works is like.... (if you are clean).... you have a new res and have to deal with it for 2 days. That is simple. A plant can go 3 days in a bad res before it has to change. 2 days in a good res is easy. So a weekly dump is perfect for a 5 day buffer. You can't screw that up.
If you follow Advanced Nutrients plan you actually can extend the res change and just keep going because they recommend running bacteria and Fungi too I think. The problem is you want to run the bacteria after the buffers have worn off. AN recommends adding them at the res change when the buffers are working.... you should add them near the end of a res, like with 2 days to go, and extend that res a few days to let it work. The bacteria likely will take off breeding and run the res up to 7 for a bit and it will come back in line after it settles and then be fine. Then you can dump and put in a new res.
There are easier ways to run things that take more work LOL.
I think Rifleman sticks to the plan and dumps weekly and follows the regimen. That is a ticket to some sweet buds fo sho.
Now if you are going to go the buffered pH nute route make no mistake, just get on the AN band wagon.
If you are going to go the route of trying to extend your res change then the rest of it is about cost and performance and upkeep. All products can get you superior results when used correctly. All products can be used wrong.
How big a scale?...I talked to a guy, who does a flood and drain, who uses a larger vortex brewer for his res. Just keep it alive and topped off. I am thinking of trying an aero that may be convertible off a smaller vortex.
Anyway there are a lot of ways to run Hydro. And done correctly all are great. It just depends on your situation. Can you check it daily or just weekly? You can run it either way... just the cost and maybe the size of operation changes.
In DWC you need to decide 2 things....1) Am I dumping regular and 2) am I running sterile or living.
After that you can make the basic decisions of what you need to run that and then get all that stuff. After that you can say "How many gallons per plant do I need to run stable a res". Then you can say I want to be able to leave for 2.5 days or 60-70 hours. My plants will take up "1" gallon per day so I want 6 plants so about 18 gallons can go down and I want it to still be manageable.
If you wanna go sterile you can follow how Rifleman does it...Dump weekly, clean the buckets and such, throw in some high concentrate H2O2, leave out the Beneficial bacteria. If you are clean and keep the res cool you can avoid the H2O2 which I think is what Rifleman does.
AN has buffers that work for about 5 days. So if you dump weekly you only have to worry about it being a normal res for 2 days. And the way it works is like.... (if you are clean).... you have a new res and have to deal with it for 2 days. That is simple. A plant can go 3 days in a bad res before it has to change. 2 days in a good res is easy. So a weekly dump is perfect for a 5 day buffer. You can't screw that up.
If you follow Advanced Nutrients plan you actually can extend the res change and just keep going because they recommend running bacteria and Fungi too I think. The problem is you want to run the bacteria after the buffers have worn off. AN recommends adding them at the res change when the buffers are working.... you should add them near the end of a res, like with 2 days to go, and extend that res a few days to let it work. The bacteria likely will take off breeding and run the res up to 7 for a bit and it will come back in line after it settles and then be fine. Then you can dump and put in a new res.
There are easier ways to run things that take more work LOL.
I think Rifleman sticks to the plan and dumps weekly and follows the regimen. That is a ticket to some sweet buds fo sho.
Now if you are going to go the buffered pH nute route make no mistake, just get on the AN band wagon.
If you are going to go the route of trying to extend your res change then the rest of it is about cost and performance and upkeep. All products can get you superior results when used correctly. All products can be used wrong.
How big a scale?...I talked to a guy, who does a flood and drain, who uses a larger vortex brewer for his res. Just keep it alive and topped off. I am thinking of trying an aero that may be convertible off a smaller vortex.
Anyway there are a lot of ways to run Hydro. And done correctly all are great. It just depends on your situation. Can you check it daily or just weekly? You can run it either way... just the cost and maybe the size of operation changes.
In DWC you need to decide 2 things....1) Am I dumping regular and 2) am I running sterile or living.
After that you can make the basic decisions of what you need to run that and then get all that stuff. After that you can say "How many gallons per plant do I need to run stable a res". Then you can say I want to be able to leave for 2.5 days or 60-70 hours. My plants will take up "1" gallon per day so I want 6 plants so about 18 gallons can go down and I want it to still be manageable.
If you wanna go sterile you can follow how Rifleman does it...Dump weekly, clean the buckets and such, throw in some high concentrate H2O2, leave out the Beneficial bacteria. If you are clean and keep the res cool you can avoid the H2O2 which I think is what Rifleman does.
I change the 5 gallon buckets weekly, but this last run only used 1ml/L. The 27 gal dwc tote was last changed 38 days ago when I flipped the light to 10.5/13.5.
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- #7
I had a ph of 5.8 yesterday morning and this morning I was at (5.4). So I drained about a gallon of water and added about 1.5/2 gallons of plan water. I was using the GH 3 bottles but I have have an issue with too much nitrogen. So I switch over to a Lucas Formula 2 bloom to 1 micro ratio. The plants seem to like this better. I haven't checked my ppms in a while but last time I check I had about 227 ish ppms. She is is also drinking about 1/2 to 3/4 of a gallon of water a day. I am pretty sure am gonna have to change to res to a bigger one to help reduce the ph because my roots have gotten to big and I cant put in as much water as I used to. I will check ppms and ph when I get home and any other information I am missing.
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- #10
I just finished changing out the res. In this res I put 7 gallon of Ro water,5 MLs of (gh triple series) Mirco, 10MLs of (gh triple series) bloom, 2 MLs of Fox farm big bloom and one scoop (teaspoon) of great white. Great white is just beneficial bacteria/ fungi powder one scoop treats 10 gallons of water. Ph was at 6 and ppms where at 105 ish. I did not add anything else to the water. Ph was not adjusted.
That is a lot of info.
To sum it up they have good sized res's now with half the nute concentration as they we used to getting?
Before when they were drinking up a half a gallon a day what was the PPM? How big are the plants now and at what stage are they? In bloom, if under a good light, and all is going great, 800 PPM is reasonable. Some people run twice that (I wouldn't). If you were running at 200 PPM in bloom and the plant wasn't telling you "more more more" that is a sign of and issue to begin with.
They may be looking for something close to 600 PPM.
To sum it up they have good sized res's now with half the nute concentration as they we used to getting?
Before when they were drinking up a half a gallon a day what was the PPM? How big are the plants now and at what stage are they? In bloom, if under a good light, and all is going great, 800 PPM is reasonable. Some people run twice that (I wouldn't). If you were running at 200 PPM in bloom and the plant wasn't telling you "more more more" that is a sign of and issue to begin with.
They may be looking for something close to 600 PPM.
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- #12
she really hasn't stopped drinking about 1/2 a gallon a day. last time i changed the res which was about 3 days ago i had a ppm reading of about 250 ish. as far as lights are concerned i a, using one of the older mars hydro 300 and a generic light off of ebay, both of my lights together pull about 285 watts from the wall and they are about 12-14 inches from the highest point on my plant. its been about one week since i flipped over to flower. she is not a very tall plant but she is very bushy maybe about 16" tall and about 20" round
picture is a few days old.
picture is a few days old.
Vestrimatrik
New Member
If your plant drinks more water than it is taking nutrients it could cause your ph to drop. Gh micro is pretty low on the ph scale.
With the ph fluctuations you have been having you might be dealing with a lockout now.
Take a ppm reading after you top off with water and one more after the res has dropped before adding more water.
Let us know your results as this might have something to do with it.
With the ph fluctuations you have been having you might be dealing with a lockout now.
Take a ppm reading after you top off with water and one more after the res has dropped before adding more water.
Let us know your results as this might have something to do with it.
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- #14
i just changed the rez and had about 105 ppms. i will check the ppms in the morning after she drinks some water.
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- #15
Lol, so today my ph was at 6.6 with a ppm reading of 61. Should I mix up a gallon of about 800 ppms and add half a gallon to the res which should bring my ppms to about 170ish
Well the deal is you don't want to change it fast and it doesn't need to change fast to fix the problem. Moving it up slowly actually works better. So as long as the top off is closer to where you want to be then where you are you will get closer to where you should be.
Then as you slowly get close the res will tell you when you have dialed it in.
I don't mix up extra as it sounds like you are. I have a big enough res I can add a 5 gallon bucket before it has any problems. so I can mix a 5 gallon bucket very easily to be what I want the res to be and top off the 5 gallons and the res is somewhere closer to what I wanted.
If you want to get to say 800 PPM and are at 200. Don't mix up something like to 1200 that will bring the whole thing to 800. Mix up not more than 800 and add that. That will bring you to something like 300-400. Then keep doing this as they take on water until it levels off.
You have a small light that I doubt gets to 800 PPM unless you have a much bigger plant. So since you don't know just start at something reasonable like try to raise it to 600.
Then as you slowly get close the res will tell you when you have dialed it in.
I don't mix up extra as it sounds like you are. I have a big enough res I can add a 5 gallon bucket before it has any problems. so I can mix a 5 gallon bucket very easily to be what I want the res to be and top off the 5 gallons and the res is somewhere closer to what I wanted.
If you want to get to say 800 PPM and are at 200. Don't mix up something like to 1200 that will bring the whole thing to 800. Mix up not more than 800 and add that. That will bring you to something like 300-400. Then keep doing this as they take on water until it levels off.
You have a small light that I doubt gets to 800 PPM unless you have a much bigger plant. So since you don't know just start at something reasonable like try to raise it to 600.
Vestrimatrik
New Member
Okay, so your at the point where your ppm goes down and ph goes up.
I don't really know how to explain this but here goes: your mix of 5ml micro for every 7 gal water change is way too low. At a 1/2 strength mix for gh micro, you would need 5ml for every 2 gal of water. Once you start getting up to full strength mixes your ph will be dropping like mad (this happened to me with gh trio). Like village idiot said "800 ppm" is about where you want to be. Mixing at half strength should (don't hold me to it) put you around there. Make sure you go half with all your nutes and not just one. That should be a great baseline to start with.
And remember, in order to figure out how much your plant is taking in, take readings every day before and after you make any changes to compare with previous days readings.
Ideally your ppm should only drift about 10 from day to day, that should help stabilize your ph. Or at least this has been my experience.
Any questions?
Sorry about the late reply (night shift)
I don't really know how to explain this but here goes: your mix of 5ml micro for every 7 gal water change is way too low. At a 1/2 strength mix for gh micro, you would need 5ml for every 2 gal of water. Once you start getting up to full strength mixes your ph will be dropping like mad (this happened to me with gh trio). Like village idiot said "800 ppm" is about where you want to be. Mixing at half strength should (don't hold me to it) put you around there. Make sure you go half with all your nutes and not just one. That should be a great baseline to start with.
And remember, in order to figure out how much your plant is taking in, take readings every day before and after you make any changes to compare with previous days readings.
Ideally your ppm should only drift about 10 from day to day, that should help stabilize your ph. Or at least this has been my experience.
Any questions?
Sorry about the late reply (night shift)
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- #18
So you saying I should have 35 ml of micro and 70 ml of bloom in my 7 gallon res? I am using Lucas Formula btw. Before I was using 5 ml of micro and 10 mls of bloom in 4 gallons and my ph was dropping like crazy. Of course my res could have been to small as I could no longer have 4 gallons of water and the roots in a 5 gallon bucket. If I am under standing right I should slowly getting increase my ppms untill my ppms are some what stable? Also be should be close to 600 ppms if everything is going good.
Vestrimatrik
New Member
Sorry if I was unclear... full strength for micro would be 5 ml per gallon correct? What I was trying to say is 5 ml for every 2 gallons... I'm not very good at explaining stuff over any written form(probably why I didn't graduate).
So by the number you are suggesting if you have a 7 gal res then 17.5ml of micro, 35 ml of bloom, and so on would be half strength.
Basically whatever the suggested amount of the nutrient is on the label is full strength, if it says 5ml per gal then only add 2.5 ml per gallon to get half strength.
Again, sorry if I'm unclear, but yes, a good mix is somewhere between 600-800 ppm.
So by the number you are suggesting if you have a 7 gal res then 17.5ml of micro, 35 ml of bloom, and so on would be half strength.
Basically whatever the suggested amount of the nutrient is on the label is full strength, if it says 5ml per gal then only add 2.5 ml per gallon to get half strength.
Again, sorry if I'm unclear, but yes, a good mix is somewhere between 600-800 ppm.
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- #20
Lol, you did a fine job of explaining. I understand what your saying. The reason my ppms are soo low, is because I been having issues with my ph sinking with just 250/ ppms. I recent switched to Lucas Formula. Which only uses micro and bloom from the GH flora 3bottle series. Before I was having a problem with to much nitrogen even tho I never went over 320ppms during veg.
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