Is 650w too much? How do they look?

[Seadaemon]

Hello all. I'm new here, this is my 2nd post.
This is my first grow. Two greasy runts in week 7 of flower I believe. I have them under a 300w led. I just bought a mars hydro fc650. I dropped the driver trying to remote mount it and busted and broke the dimming knob and PC board. The light will only run on full power right now 650w. So my question is : do you think 650w would be too much for my 4x4 grow Tent at this stage ? I have a new dimmer coming that I will install shortly. What wattage should I be running once I get the dimmer ? The plants are being watered every 3 to 4 days. Flora bloom added every 2nd watering. How do the plants look to you guys&gals ?
I'm a little concerned about the yellow leaves. I removed almost all of them yesterday, but in today's picture you can see more have appeared. I watered yesterday with the bloom mix.Right now the 300w light is 20" above the canopy.

 

[Delps8]

The amount of electricity the light draws from the wall tells you…the amount of electricity the light draws from the wall. It doesn't tell you how much light your plants are getting and it doesn't tell you how much light your plants can use. Having said that, it is a rough indicator of how much light the fixture will put out it's a pretty powerful light so you've got something to work with.

The fact that it's a Mars 6500 is really helpful because we can see how much light it puts out.

The amount of light a grow light generates can be measured in "PPFD" which indicates how many photon are hitting a square meter every second (it's similar to measuring how much rain is falling every minute in a square meter when it's raining). At 12" and 100% power, that light is pushing out a PPFD of almost 1300 and the numbers are pretty good except in the corners.

You can run that light in your grow at 12" and 100% unless you're running a KFC but Mars does give you advice on the hang height and the dimmer setting. Those numbers are important.

Per Mars, in flower and ambient CO2, they're recommending 12" hang height and 100% so they're definitely in the filling up the "extra crispy" bin. Do not do that.

I can't find a PPFD map that has numbers for higher hang heights so it'll have to be "this should work out pretty well" instead of "here, do this".

As hang height increases, the PPFD on the canopy decreases. Just raising a grow light a few inches make a significant difference. Less light is usually not a good thing but what is good about raising a light is that the light case on the canopy is more even. With that in mind, I'd probably use a 16" or 18" hang height (if you had a working dimmer).

Since your dimmer is stuck at 100%…well, you won't have to worry about a dimmer setting till the new dimmer arrives.

Until then, I'd probably go with 18" and check your plants after 30 minutes and then 30 minutes later. If the edges of the leaves are curling or starting to curl ("canoeing" or "tacoing") that's an indication that they're getting a little too much light. Another reaction is that the leaf turns around its branch ("petiole") like a Venetian blind but tacoing is more common.

If the leaves taco, raise the light an inch or two and then check them again in 30 minutes and 30 minutes after that.

If they're doing OK, you can drop the light a couple of inches, check them at 30 and then 30. Lather, rinse, repeat.

My hunch is that 14" is the closest you'll want to go.

Two issues - you don't have many leaves which is too bad because plants need leaves to grow well. Have you defoliated your plants? That's usually why plants end up like that.

Another issue is that your at that temp and RH your temp + RH values are a little bit high. The easy way to talk about top + RH is a measurement referred to as VPD and your VPD is about 1.5. If you lower the temp or raise the RH, the air around the plant is cooler/moister and it doesn't have to give off as much moisture. If you can get RH to about 50% your plant won't need as much water.

In flower, leaves naturally turn yellow. One of the valuable functions of leaves is that they are used as nutrient stores. As flower progresses, nutrients are moved from the lower leaves to the leaves higher up in the plant. As those nutrients are "translocated", the leaves turn yellow ("senesce" like old people do), and eventually die off (refer to comment about "old people"). I can't really tell which leaves are turning yellow so it could be senescence or it could be a nutrient issue.

Post a few more photos. Take some of the entire plant (step back from the plant so we can see the whole plant) and then take a few shots of the leaves that are yellowing.

I realize that you can't put the leaves back on the plant (that's for your next grow) but RH can be tweaked, usually, and a little more moisture in the air would be helpful.


[edit]

I had a dimmer go on the fritz and it was a PITA. The bigger PITA is that the company is now out of business so if the new ones crap out on me, I'm SOL. :-(

 

[Seadaemon]

Delps8 : Thanks for the response !! I have adjusted the dehumidifier from 40 to 50% just now. See attached pics as per your request. A little back story on these plants. I bought them at about 12". I grew them outside but under cover until they started flowering. Then I bought a grow Tent and bought them inside. They ended up getting pwm, which is why i cut so many leaves off. I turfed one plant but these 2 plants were not that bad. I have used white wash and also baking soda and white wash to rinse the pwm off the plants. I'm.learning alot this grow and should be better prepared for the next grow. My ppfd is avg 1.73 right now. Hopefully that higher rh adjustment will help. What do these new pics tell you ?

 

[Pitmaster]

The amount of electricity the light draws from the wall tells you…the amount of electricity the light draws from the wall. It doesn't tell you how much light your plants are getting and it doesn't tell you how much light your plants can use. Having said that, it is a rough indicator of how much light the fixture will put out it's a pretty powerful light so you've got something to work with.

The fact that it's a Mars 6500 is really helpful because we can see how much light it puts out.

The amount of light a grow light generates can be measured in "PPFD" which indicates how many photon are hitting a square meter every second (it's similar to measuring how much rain is falling every minute in a square meter when it's raining). At 12" and 100% power, that light is pushing out a PPFD of almost 1300 and the numbers are pretty good except in the corners.

You can run that light in your grow at 12" and 100% unless you're running a KFC but Mars does give you advice on the hang height and the dimmer setting. Those numbers are important.

Per Mars, in flower and ambient CO2, they're recommending 12" hang height and 100% so they're definitely in the filling up the "extra crispy" bin. Do not do that.

I can't find a PPFD map that has numbers for higher hang heights so it'll have to be "this should work out pretty well" instead of "here, do this".

As hang height increases, the PPFD on the canopy decreases. Just raising a grow light a few inches make a significant difference. Less light is usually not a good thing but what is good about raising a light is that the light case on the canopy is more even. With that in mind, I'd probably use a 16" or 18" hang height (if you had a working dimmer).

Since your dimmer is stuck at 100%…well, you won't have to worry about a dimmer setting till the new dimmer arrives.

Until then, I'd probably go with 18" and check your plants after 30 minutes and then 30 minutes later. If the edges of the leaves are curling or starting to curl ("canoeing" or "tacoing") that's an indication that they're getting a little too much light. Another reaction is that the leaf turns around its branch ("petiole") like a Venetian blind but tacoing is more common.

If the leaves taco, raise the light an inch or two and then check them again in 30 minutes and 30 minutes after that.

If they're doing OK, you can drop the light a couple of inches, check them at 30 and then 30. Lather, rinse, repeat.

My hunch is that 14" is the closest you'll want to go.

Two issues - you don't have many leaves which is too bad because plants need leaves to grow well. Have you defoliated your plants? That's usually why plants end up like that.

Another issue is that your at that temp and RH your temp + RH values are a little bit high. The easy way to talk about top + RH is a measurement referred to as VPD and your VPD is about 1.5. If you lower the temp or raise the RH, the air around the plant is cooler/moister and it doesn't have to give off as much moisture. If you can get RH to about 50% your plant won't need as much water.

In flower, leaves naturally turn yellow. One of the valuable functions of leaves is that they are used as nutrient stores. As flower progresses, nutrients are moved from the lower leaves to the leaves higher up in the plant. As those nutrients are "translocated", the leaves turn yellow ("senesce" like old people do), and eventually die off (refer to comment about "old people"). I can't really tell which leaves are turning yellow so it could be senescence or it could be a nutrient issue.

Post a few more photos. Take some of the entire plant (step back from the plant so we can see the whole plant) and then take a few shots of the leaves that are yellowing.

I realize that you can't put the leaves back on the plant (that's for your next grow) but RH can be tweaked, usually, and a little more moisture in the air would be helpful.


[edit]

I had a dimmer go on the fritz and it was a PITA. The bigger PITA is that the company is now out of business so if the new ones crap out on me, I'm SOL. :-(

 

[Pitmaster]

I'm running a 500-watt AC Infinity ION Frame Series 6 in a 4x4 tent which is adequate. 750 is best suited for a 5x5 tent.

 

[Delps8]

I'm running a 500-watt AC Infinity ION Frame Series 6 in a 4x4 tent which is adequate. 750 is best suited for a 5x5 tent.

It depends on what you're looking for in a light. Input wattage is just a rule of thumb measurement. 750 watts in a 5' x 5' is 30 watts per square meter. For some growers, that's all they want. PPFD map is an issue if you're going to fill the tent so it's not just wattage or PPF. It boils down to PPFD and percentage drop-off across the map.

I was looking to replace my Growcraft X3 flower light. I took the PPFD values from the third party tests and created a surface chart in Excel. The X3 is a 330 watt light so I'm getting just over 40 watts/sq foot in my 1' x 4' tent.

My goal was to have a light that could put >1kµmol on a canopy from at least 18" because the latest research shows that temperatures in flower of <=78° are critical for retaining cannabanoids.

I spent a fair amount of hours to find the Vipar SE and G4500 lights.

This is the map for the G4500 and it's really nice. I prefer the spectrum on the X3 but since increasing light increases yield in an almost linear manner I was willing to give up the red heavy spectrum of the X3 for the more balanced G/SE4500 lights.

Those lights had a 430 watt driver which would come to 56 watts/sq foot. That would have worked out pretty well but Vipar gelded that version of the lights in June/July and released the new models with a 330 watt driver, reducing the watt/sq ft to 40±.

The PPF, PPFD, and PPFD maps are radically different and they're "just another 2' x 4' light" instead of being a fire breather for growers who like to run high light.

No doubt about it, a lot of growers will get a lot of use out of a 750 watt light fora 5' x 5' whereas some growers will opt for a 1500 watt light in a 5' x 5' tent with a staggering light output, an excellent PPFD map, and a choice of different spectra.

Re retiring my X3 - after looking at alternative lights, I decided that my current grow light was still about the best I could find, even though it's a 4 year old design.

 

[Pitmaster]

It depends on what you're looking for in a light. Input wattage is just a rule of thumb measurement. 750 watts in a 5' x 5' is 30 watts per square meter. For some growers, that's all they want. PPFD map is an issue if you're going to fill the tent so it's not just wattage or PPF. It boils down to PPFD and percentage drop-off across the map.

I was looking to replace my Growcraft X3 flower light. I took the PPFD values from the third party tests and created a surface chart in Excel. The X3 is a 330 watt light so I'm getting just over 40 watts/sq foot in my 1' x 4' tent.

My goal was to have a light that could put >1kµmol on a canopy from at least 18" because the latest research shows that temperatures in flower of <=78° are critical for retaining cannabanoids.

I spent a fair amount of hours to find the Vipar SE and G4500 lights.

This is the map for the G4500 and it's really nice. I prefer the spectrum on the X3 but since increasing light increases yield in an almost linear manner I was willing to give up the red heavy spectrum of the X3 for the more balanced G/SE4500 lights.

Those lights had a 430 watt driver which would come to 56 watts/sq foot. That would have worked out pretty well but Vipar gelded that version of the lights in June/July and released the new models with a 330 watt driver, reducing the watt/sq ft to 40±.

The PPF, PPFD, and PPFD maps are radically different and they're "just another 2' x 4' light" instead of being a fire breather for growers who like to run high light.

No doubt about it, a lot of growers will get a lot of use out of a 750 watt light fora 5' x 5' whereas some growers will opt for a 1500 watt light in a 5' x 5' tent with a staggering light output, an excellent PPFD map, and a choice of different spectra.

Re retiring my X3 - after looking at alternative lights, I decided that my current grow light was still about the best I could find, even though it's a 4 year old design.

 

[Pitmaster]

These are the Specs for My Infinity Light.

• Programmed with schedule controls, sunrise/sunset dimming, and 10 brightness levels; UIS™ platform-compatible for WiFi app control.
• Bar-style fixture with algorithmically spaced diodes optimized for even coverage, deep canopy penetration, and hotspot reduction.
• Passive cooling LED driver is removable to balance heat dissipation; also supports daisy-chaining with up to 80 grow lights.
• 5 x 5 ft. Veg. Coverage | 4 x 4 ft. Flower Coverage | Samsung LM301H EVO Chips | 1680 Diodes | 500W | 1991 PPFD | ETL Cert. 5021417

I purchased it as Recommended by them via their Web Site. It's one their Commercial Lights.

AC Infinity

Create smart growing systems with advanced components like grow tents, fans, LED lights, and UIS™ controllers.

acinfinity.com

 

[Fenderbender]

No problem having a too strong light if you can dim it.. oversizing and overpowering the light is always good, got extra in the bank in case you ever need it, lights don't need to run at full power saves them stress, and in combo with the tent if the light has enough size and power you can get away with using less power to achieve the same light density and probably even more even distributed than a smaller fixture.
So I think fitting that light into that 4x4 is a great choice.

Although it does seem since it's quite snug you plan to have it set on being all the way up in the ceiling?
Which is an approach you can take with it but you'll be running it at higher powers that way.. if you can move it up and down above the crop and dim and take light measurements you can get away with hardly using any power at all and still provide copious amounts of energy.

 

[Pitmaster]

No problem having a too strong light if you can dim it.. oversizing and overpowering the light is always good, got extra in the bank in case you ever need it, lights don't need to run at full power saves them stress, and in combo with the tent if the light has enough size and power you can get away with using less power to achieve the same light density and probably even more even distributed than a smaller fixture.
So I think fitting that light into that 4x4 is a great choice.

Although it does seem since it's quite snug you plan to have it set on being all the way up in the ceiling?
Which is an approach you can take with it but you'll be running it at higher powers that way.. if you can move it up and down above the crop and dim and take light measurements you can get away with hardly using any power at all and still provide copious amounts of energy.

I was just stating what Infinity recommended for My style light. Mine puts out a lot of heat even with a 6-inch exhaust fan. I think I'll remove the Driver and wall mount it to solve that issue. All My stuff is AC Infinity except my tent that is connected to their 69 Pro Controller which has a App on my phone so I can control things while I'm away from home if needed.

Happy Growing!

 

[Fenderbender]

I don't know the AC lights, handy though if everything is controllable from the app.
I am eyeing on of those T exhausts though with the controller. An exhaust that gets triggers by heat and humidity and can be set to a quiet speed would be a dream. Mine just runs at half speed every hour.

 

[Pitmaster]

I don't know the AC lights, handy though if everything is controllable from the app.
I am eyeing on of those T exhausts though with the controller. An exhaust that gets triggers by heat and humidity and can be set to a quiet speed would be a dream. Mine just runs at half speed every hour.

Mine does all that plus some that's why I chose Ac Infinity and their Controller. My Lights, Fans, Humidifier, and exhaust fan all can be controlled in the App. Mine is good for 4 accessories they have an 8 one also.
I think their Controller can handle other makers lights. Don't quote me on that.

 

[Delps8]

Mine does all that plus some that's why I chose Ac Infinity and their Controller. My Lights, Fans, Humidifier, and exhaust fan all can be controlled in the App. Mine is good for 4 accessories they have an 8 one also.
I think their Controller can handle other makers lights. Don't quote me on that.

AC Infinity sells adapters that you can use to connect other brands of lights to their controllers. When I was testing the Mars SP3000R as a replacement for my Growcraft, I was controlling both the SP3000R and the SP3000. The controllers worked without issue.

I was using the Controller 69 Pro + but that feature is available on other models and has been available for some time.

 

[Delps8]

These are the Specs for My Infinity Light.

• Programmed with schedule controls, sunrise/sunset dimming, and 10 brightness levels; UIS™ platform-compatible for WiFi app control.
• Bar-style fixture with algorithmically spaced diodes optimized for even coverage, deep canopy penetration, and hotspot reduction.
• Passive cooling LED driver is removable to balance heat dissipation; also supports daisy-chaining with up to 80 grow lights.
• 5 x 5 ft. Veg. Coverage | 4 x 4 ft. Flower Coverage | Samsung LM301H EVO Chips | 1680 Diodes | 500W | 1991 PPFD | ETL Cert. 5021417

I purchased it as Recommended by them via their Web Site. It's one their Commercial Lights.

AC Infinity

Create smart growing systems with advanced components like grow tents, fans, LED lights, and UIS™ controllers.

acinfinity.com

I'm familiar with most the lights from commodity manufacturers. The description above applies to lights put out by Vipar, Mars, etc. LED grow lights have been a commodity product for maybe two years now.

There are differences, which I can go into at some length, but, overall, they're almost cookie cutter products.

 

[Delps8]

I was just stating what Infinity recommended for My style light. Mine puts out a lot of heat even with a 6-inch exhaust fan. I think I'll remove the Driver and wall mount it to solve that issue. All My stuff is AC Infinity except my tent that is connected to their 69 Pro Controller which has a App on my phone so I can control things while I'm away from home if needed.

Happy Growing!

I was in a similar situation in my Spring grow this year though I have two drivers, on in the tent and the "external" driver (I have a veg light and a flower light, each with a 330 watt driver).

When I saw that tent temp would increase over the course of the day, I switch to the external driver.

Funny thing is that the temp in the tent did not go down.

The issue is that, even though the light bars ran at 98-105°, that was enough to bump up the temperature at the flower tops.

I'm not saying to not put the driver outside of the tent. Given that hot air rises, I have to question just how much the internal drive adds to tent temps (assuming that the inline fan is changing the air at about 2 times/minute).

Instead, you might try putting the driver on a pulley so that you can raise is in the tent but then experiment with raising the hang height of the light.

I've changed my grow strategy for my current grow to keep my temps <80 vs my usual <85. To accomplish this, I've raised my hang height to about 16" and am leaving the doors to the tent open. Normally, I run a 12" hang height and keep the doors closed to increase PPFD but this time I'm using a higher hang height and bumping the input wattage.