Fungus or nute burn?

[johnnyappleseed]

I've been fertilizing with Master blend at half strength (which is around 1.0 ec.). I feed at every watering whenever the pot feels light to me .

I checked the runoff today while watering with the master blend solution and the runoff was 2 ec. So that tells me I'm using too much nutrients. Ph was right on the money at 6.2. Does this look like nute burn to you though?

 

[Bill284]

Hey Buddy sorry about your issues
In my opinion you have a major deficiency
1 ec is what 500 ppm?
I'm week 1 of flower and I'm over 1000 ppm already.
What's in your pots? Soil or coco.
You should follow the instructions that come with your nutrients.
They test them and go through a lot of different variations to come up with the proper combination.
Running 50% strength is just starving her.
You are missing out on terps/thc aswell.



Stay safe
Bill284

 

[johnnyappleseed]

I'm in Peat with vermiculite and perlite. I'm not sure about the PPM, I'm just using EC. I use the thousand decimal so, 1000 EC is what my meter is showing. This is the master blend at half strength. If the runoff is showing 2000 EC doesn't that mean that she's not eating as much nutrient? It seems seems odd to feed her more

 

[Bill284]

I'm in Peat with vermiculite and perlite. I'm not sure about the PPM, I'm just using EC. I use the thousand decimal so, 1000 EC is what my meter is showing. This is the master blend at half strength. If the runoff is showing 2000 EC doesn't that mean that she's not eating as much nutrient? It seems seems odd to feed her more

Peat & vermiculite don't contain any nutrients.
The only nutrients it gets is what you feed.
I'd bump it to 1.75 EC and put calmag in my nutrient water first.
It won't help the leaves that are damaged.
But you will stop it's progression and improve your but quality and harvest
Run Off contains debris from the pot.
2EC runoff doesn't mean anything.
What was the ph?


Stay safe
Bill284

 

[johnnyappleseed]

I'm feeding Master blend with calcium nitrate and Epsom. PH is spot on at 6.2.

Okay, I'll bump up the nutrient mixture. Do you think there's anything wrong with feeding at every watering? I'll be honest, this is OG Kush from rqs, which I know is really not OG Kush. It's no biggie if this thing keels over. I had another plant that did the same exact thing but it got worse and eventually I had to chop it. I remember those EC readings were very high, like 3 and change.

I just discovered something from my routine that might have been affecting many of my grows. When I check pH I dip the pen directly in the nutrient solution. I looked at the probes on my pens and they were extremely nasty. Bunch of nasty crap growing in there. I'm guessing it's possible I've been infecting my my water every time I've been feeding my plants. Not sure if this matters or not. I'm going to pour out my water and test it in a separate cup from now on.

Maybe this is why my Hydro grow went so well. I used pool shock to sterilize it.

 

[Bill284]

I'm feeding Master blend with calcium nitrate and Epsom. PH is spot on at 6.2.

Okay, I'll bump up the nutrient mixture. Do you think there's anything wrong with feeding at every watering? I'll be honest, this is OG Kush from rqs, which I know is really not OG Kush. It's no biggie if this thing keels over. I had another plant that did the same exact thing but it got worse and eventually I had to chop it. I remember those EC readings were very high, like 3 and change.

I just discovered something from my routine that might have been affecting many of my grows. When I check pH I dip the pen directly in the nutrient solution. I looked at the probes on my pens and they were extremely nasty. Bunch of nasty crap growing in there. I'm guessing it's possible I've been infecting my my water every time I've been feeding my plants. Not sure if this matters or not. I'm going to pour out my water and test it in a separate cup from now on.

Maybe this is why my Hydro grow went so well. I used pool shock to sterilize it.

I finding calmag works well.
You can try feeding every time, I can't imagine it'll be a problem at this age.
Clean that probe with a soft toothbrush once a week.
It shouldn't contaminate anything though , just messes up your reading.
Feed her and she should make harvest no problem.


Stay safe
Bill284

 

[Bill284]

Hmmm. Conflicting responses here lol. I agree the ec excess indicates nute burn but the leaves aren't dark green, no curling/claw, tips aren't really burnt....

That’s a bot ! J007
It’s just selling coco.
Wait and see.


Stay safe
Bill284

 

[SmokingWings]

I've been fertilizing with Master blend at half strength (which is around 1.0 ec.). I feed at every watering whenever the pot feels light to me .

Dropping the fertilizer doses or rates to half strength when the plant is entering the flowering stage makes no sense. The plant is going into a high energy demand stage and needs more nutrients for successful reproduction which in this case is flower production.

In my opinion you have a major deficiency

Yep., I have to agree. Those leaves are indicating an advanced Phosphorous deficiency.

At a very early and minor stage the deficiency can show with some purple or reddish stems and leaf petioles. If that is all that shows then the plant has it under control and often is not considered a problem. And a phenotype that will produce purple colors in the flowers and surrounding leaves is a different thing.

When the plant enters into the flowering stage and buds start forming the need for Phosphorous goes up, way up. Since that nutrient is somewhat mobile in plants it is moved from the older leaves to the newly forming buds. This means that those older leaves start to turn red, purple or sometimes a blue color. As the problem progresses The colors can become darker or change to shades of brown. Eventually the leaf is dead and the problem is spreading to more leaves.

One of the better web sites to explain what is happening in a Cannabis plant with a Phosphorous deficiency is Royal Queen Seeds. The quote is from one of their web pages:
"Phosphorus plays a key role in the development of cannabis flowers, and as such is needed in higher quantities in this last stage of growth."

 

[SmokingWings]

Maybe this is why my Hydro grow went so well.

And you are still growing in a medium that is better suited for hydroponic methods. Your familiarity with hydro methods should allow you to have successful grows.

I'm in Peat with vermiculite and perlite.

Peat, vermiculite and Perlite together seem to produce the best when hydro rules are followed. There are no naturally occurring and available nutrients in any of those three so it is up to the grower to mix what is needed into the water.

That particular mix is not a dirt or compost based soil even if it looks like one.

I feed at every watering whenever the pot feels light to me .

This works great when growing in a dirt or compost based soil mix but not in a peat base. Follow hydro methods and probably much better success. Watering more often, but less each time, might be better with the mix you are using.

Ph was right on the money at 6.2.

Yes, 6.2 for a natural or dirt based medium. When in hydro then a 5.8 pH works much better.

I had another plant that did the same exact thing but it got worse and eventually I had to chop it. I remember those EC readings were very high, like 3 and change.

This is an interesting comment. Your photos show what looks like an advanced stage of Phosphorous deficiency and I kept wondering why it was showing this early in the flowering stage. That got me to thinking that something in the fertilizers is causing a 'lockout' of Phosphorous but so far I cannot find any combination of individual nutrients or Epsom Salts that would do that.

You mention that you are using Master Blend fertilizers and when I checked there were a couple different blends available. Which do you have? Or, can you tell us what the NPK numbers are?

 

[johnnyappleseed]

Thanks for all that info! I never thought about the Pete, vermiculite, and perlite being similar to hydro. I'll take that into account going forward.

The images of the phosphorus deficiency posted above do not match what is going on on my leaves. Those brown blotches are not symmetrical and appear randomly on the leaf. My brown blotches appear symmetrically in between the veins. I also did not mention before these affected leaves are very dry and crunchy as soon as the symptoms appear. It happens from the bottom up.

I did not drop my nute mix entering flower. I started the plant with a quarter strength and worked up to a half strength which is what I've continuously fed at every watering. Fwiw, I also did my hydro grow at half strength too. The NPK of my nudes are crazy high and I'm too scared to run at full strength *see below.

I'm using Master blend tomato formula which is 4- 18-38. It needs to be mixed with magnesium sulfate and calcium nitrate. The calcium nitrate has an npk of 15.5 -0-0. To me, this means the final NPK numbers are 19.5-18-38. However, two reps at Master blend said this is not the case. They said that it goes by weight and since we're adding these elements together we need to divide by two, so the actual nitrogen is more like 10. They said I need to cut the other p&k in half too. I'm struggling to understand this part.

Anyway, if what they say is true, then my final NPK numbers are 10-9-19. And, if so, my half strength dilution is 5- 4.5- 9.5.

 

[SmokingWings]

The images of the phosphorus deficiency posted above do not match what is going on on my leaves. Those brown blotches are not symmetrical and appear randomly on the leaf. My brown blotches appear symmetrically in between the veins.

The leaves are part of a living organism and the patterns can be random and not an exact match.

Do a search looking for info on Phosphorous deficiencies in plants and the photos used are never matching from one example to the next. Some plants will have more red showing than others or more purple. Some plants develop a tip burn on the fingers and some do not. Even in your photos the fingers on one leaf each have a different pattern whether color or number of spots. It is similar to people who have skin cancer--no two cases will look exactly the same even if it is the same type of skin cancer.

I'm using Master blend tomato formula which is 4- 18-38.

I was wondering if that was the one you used. It seems to be one of their more popular mixes. I noticed that they are now making a mix specifically for Cannabis.

Mixing two or more fertilizers together does get complicated. I figure it is best to leave the mixing and math to the people at the fertilizer company and let them figure out the NPK for me.

Anyway, if what they say is true, then my final NPK numbers are 10-9-19. And, if so, my half strength dilution is 5- 4.5- 9.5.

I understand what you are saying and how you get to the numbers you are using but there is still a Phosphorous shortage for the plants as they go into flowering. When I start looking for the best ratio of N to P to K for Cannabis plants that are starting the flowering stage I find a common pattern of the recommendation for the Phosphorous being 3 to 5 times the Nitrogen.

Another way of finding the recommendation for the ratios is to check the different fertilizer companies making products for Cannabis growers and to look at their feeding schedules. Then there are what some growers call "the finishers" or special fertilizers that are included in the feeding schedule during the flowering stage and these are often just high phosphorous levels that will be used for just part of the flowering stage.

For photos and diagrams of Phosphorous deficiency do web searches using the key words of:
phosphorous deficiency plants which will show and discuss all types of plants
phosphorous deficiency cannabis to narrow it down and then
phosphorous deficiency cannabis images to narrow it down even more to the photos (google and some other search engines also have a tab for showing images).

This will work well if you have access to a larger computer like a desktop or even laptop. I don't know how to get the info and photos to show if using a phone since they seem rather limited in how much info can be shown at a time.

 

[johnnyappleseed]

It's really difficult for me to diagnose plant diseases from looking at Google images and all those diagrams. It's like the equivalent of being colorblind. There are just too many variables and things look too similar, and like you said it varies so much from plant to plant. What's interesting though is I've had several plants with this same exact characteristic. Which led me to believe that it was more of a fungus. Especially since I was using the Fox Farm trio on the other plant. Too many variables

I'll try boosting my fertilizer and see what happens. What was your rationale for why the runoff has double the EC compared to the input?

I do a lot of research and like to talk directly to the company. The results of which often end up on my YouTube channel, 86 peppers.

Masterblend makes an exclusive product for customhydronutrients.com. I'm expecting a call back from the owner . Apparently, this product came to be because of an overwhelming request for a cannabis specific product That allows users to reduce nitrogen while in flower but not sacrifice phosphorus or potassium which explains the 0-20-42. Me personally, I'm not entirely sold on this specific cannabis product. I think that the regular Master blend tomato formula is just fine for the entire growth of the plant. To me, it sounds like Master blend " giving the customer what they want" regardless of its efficacy. When I shared this opinion to the Master blend reps, they both "sort of" agreed with me . I mean, why would they make a product just for one company and not offer it themselves? MB is a huge supplier for commercial operations, whom I tend to trust.

 

[SmokingWings]

I'll try boosting my fertilizer and see what happens. What was your rationale for why the runoff has double the EC compared to the input?

I am wondering if it is a case of the peat having absorbed and is holding onto too much of the incoming water & fertilizer mix. Now when you take a reading you are getting the excess salts that the peat can no longer hold added to what is in the current mix.

Boosting the fertilizers might not help as much as just increasing the amount of Phosphorous a tad bit.

What are the readings if you were to run just enough plain water through the peat to get a sample? Then do a flush of the container and after it has stopped dripping that water, which might be several hours, run enough fresh water back through to be able to get a reading. If the peat has been accumulating fertilizer salts then the new reading should give hints as to whether the peat was holding onto more than it should.

 

[johnnyappleseed]

Boosting the fertilizers might not help as much as just increasing the amount of Phosphorous a tad bit.

How do I raise just the phosphorus?

What are the readings if you were to run just enough plain water through the peat to get a sample? Then do a flush of the container and after it has stopped dripping that water, which might be several hours, run enough fresh water back through to be able to get a reading. If the peat has been accumulating fertilizer salts then the new reading should give hints as to whether the peat was holding onto more than it should.

Will do! The EC reading I got of double was when I ran straight pH to water through and tested the runoff.

Thank you!!!!

 

[SmokingWings]

How do I raise just the phosphorus?

There are stand alone Phosphorus fertilizers available. I have a couple that are 0-17-0 or something close but that is fairly strong. I keep them around in case something shows up that I was not expecting or if just want to experiment while looking for solutions to problems that sometimes do not exist.

You might be able to find a fertilizer mix that will provide an acceptable amount of P with a very small amounts of the Nitrogen and Potassium. With one of those mixes you could increase the Phosphorous without having to worry that there is now to much N and K.

Check at local gardening centers, grow stores or hydroponic shops to find out what is available. Highly unlikely that you will be able to cure the current problem but doing something should slow it down, maybe stop it from spreading, plus you will be ahead of the plant's demands the next growing session.

Will do! The EC reading I got of double was when I ran straight pH to water through and tested the runoff.

Will you be doing a flushing of the media to see if you can clear out any or all excess salts that the peat has accumulated?

 

[johnnyappleseed]

There are stand alone Phosphorus fertilizers available. I have a couple that are 0-17-0 or something close but that is fairly strong. I keep them around in case something shows up that I was not expecting or if just want to experiment while looking for solutions to problems that sometimes do not exist.

You might be able to find a fertilizer mix that will provide an acceptable amount of P with a very small amounts of the Nitrogen and Potassium. With one of those mixes you could increase the Phosphorous without having to worry that there is now to much N and K.

Check at local gardening centers, grow stores or hydroponic shops to find out what is available. Highly unlikely that you will be able to cure the current problem but doing something should slow it down, maybe stop it from spreading, plus you will be ahead of the plant's demands the next growing session.


Will you be doing a flushing of the media to see if you can clear out any or all excess salts that the peat has accumulated?

Yes, will do! I have some ff sledgehammer too. What's your take on running sterile in soil. Is that a thing? When people run synthetic nudes in soil are there still microorganisms That exist? Since they are not needed to break down organic fertilizer, I wonder if people ever just run sterile like with the pool shock.

 

[Bill284]

Yes, will do! I have some ff sledgehammer too. What's your take on running sterile in soil. Is that a thing? When people run synthetic nudes in soil are there still microorganisms That exist? Since they are not needed to break down organic fertilizer, I wonder if people ever just run sterile like with the pool shock.

I’ve cooked soil before to kill bugs that came in the bag.
But I use Bokashi, Frass and DYNOMYCO to rejuvenate the life in the root zone.
It’s not absolutely necessary though.
For a big healthy plant I like a healthy microbial base.


Stay safe
Bill284

 

[SmokingWings]

What's your take on running sterile in soil. Is that a thing?

are there still microorganisms That exist? Since they are not needed to break down organic fertilizer, I wonder if people ever just run sterile like with the pool shock.

Even if the soil is sterilized using traditional methods there are micro-organisms that survive and these will start to reproduce within hours. The questions or comments you brought up are a bit confusing since what is the point of growing in a natural and compost soil if there is no breakdown of organic or natural material.

Your questions are interesting but first I am.......

synthetic nudes in soil

....I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around the concept of synthetic nudes.

Thinking about it, I have to ask myself if there are synthetic nudes there must also be natural nudes. Personally, I figure I would be more interested in those 'natural' nudes.

 

[johnnyappleseed]

Lol i left that typo in there for S&Gs!

I am using the medium of perlite, vermiculite, and peat similar to that of a hydro grow*, similar to clay pebbles but with the ability to retain moisture.

My understanding of organic nutrients is that it depends on microbial activity in the soil to break them down into the chemicals that the plant can absorb. Synthetic nutrients do not require this microbial breakdown. They are immediately available to the plant. I assume you all likely know this here, I'm just explaining my understanding of it.

* Since you made me realize I am indeed treating this as a hydro grow, I was just wondering if running sterile soil would provide any benefits like it does in Hydro.

 

[SmokingWings]

My understanding of organic nutrients is that it depends on microbial activity in the soil to break them down into the chemicals that the plant can absorb.

Yep, basically that is what is happening.

Synthetic nutrients do not require this microbial breakdown. They are immediately available to the plant.

Yep, the way I see it. But, one little thing I try to keep in mind. Just about every package of 'organic input' or natural fertilizers will have a small percentage of a nutrient that is considered "water soluble". Those will start to be available as soon as the soil has enough water. The rest of it needs the microbes to eat it and pass it through their system to make it available. Or, when the microbe dies it then decomposes and that releases the nutrients.

I was just wondering if running sterile soil would provide any benefits like it does in Hydro.

Sterilizing the soil will kill off a large amount of weed seeds and pathogens. It also kills off a large percentage of beneficial micro-organisms at the same time. Within a short amount of time the survivors are starting to repopulate. There are some of these micro-organisms, good and bad, that are floating in the air. Those will contribute to the new population.

The way I see it a truly sterile grow medium will be something like Perlite, Hydroton clay balls, rockwool or even plain water in a basket that acts as something to hold the plant. Using Peat Moss and Coco Coir is using organic or natural material but they take years to break down or decompose to become usable as something that would feed the plant.

On top of that some of the soil producing companies are adding micro-organism to their medium. Some of the fertilizer companies are also adding these to their products. Pro-Mix is adding Mycorrhizae to one or more of their Peat based lines of grow medium.

A true sterile grow medium that is available to the average gardener might be hard to find.