Flowering Issues/ Question with TLO Indoors.

[StickMan15]

Had a fairly decent first grow last season. My first grow was outdoors using TLO.

Just closing out my first indoor photo grow using this same mix, and had some major Ca/Mag/K def issues week 2-3 after flipping on 2 of 4 strains. Worst defs were on some Kushes. Getting ready to flip my next run in a couple of weeks, and wanted to get some feed back on what you veteran indoor TLO growers do, if anything around the time you flip, such as doing a top dressing. If so, what have you found works well for most genetics? I did do some foliar feeding with molasses and Epsom salt, to no avail.


I am using 2k HPS for flowering with all environmental factors such as RH,temps, air exchange, and oscillating fans well within good growing parameters.

Here is the soil recipe that I am using.

PRO-MIX BX
Perlite (additional)
Steer Manure/Compost
Mexican bat guano
Indonesian bat guano
Jamaican bat guano
Peruvian seabird guano
Earthworm castings
Kelp Meal
Epsom Salt
Greensand
Rock phosphate
Crushed oyster shells
Dolomite lime
Azomite (trace minerals)
Humic/Fulvic Acids (granular)
SubCulture M (Mycorrhizae)

Thanks for any and all recommendations/advice that you can give this novice grower.

 

[ProperGreen]

Not Sure If You Mean TLO As In The Rev's Style Or TLO As In Living Organic Soil, But

Had a fairly decent first grow last season. My first grow was outdoors using TLO.

Just closing out my first indoor photo grow using this same mix, and had some major Ca/Mag/K def issues week 2-3 after flipping on 2 of 4 strains. Worst defs were on some Kushes. Getting ready to flip my next run in a couple of weeks, and wanted to get some feed back on what you veteran indoor TLO growers do, if anything around the time you flip, such as doing a top dressing. If so, what have you found works well for most genetics? I did do some foliar feeding with molasses and Epsom salt, to no avail.


I am using 2k HPS for flowering with all environmental factors such as RH,temps, air exchange, and oscillating fans well within good growing parameters.

Here is the soil recipe that I am using.

PRO-MIX BX
Perlite (additional)
Steer Manure/Compost
Mexican bat guano
Indonesian bat guano
Jamaican bat guano
Peruvian seabird guano
Earthworm castings
Kelp Meal
Epsom Salt
Greensand
Rock phosphate
Crushed oyster shells
Dolomite lime
Azomite (trace minerals)
Humic/Fulvic Acids (granular)
SubCulture M (Mycorrhizae)

Thanks for any and all recommendations/advice that you can give this novice grower.

Hey brother,

I'm not sure if you mean TLO as in The Rev's style of gardening, or if you just mean true living organics in terms of a living organic soil, but I'll take a shot at offering some advice from the outside looking in.

For one, your soil mix looks EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA HEAVY!
You've got a few things in there that stand to serve the same purpose like the following:

• Mexican Bat Guano, Seabird Guano, are both source of N, so you don't need them both. I'd go with one of the other, maybe the Mexican Bat Guano over the Seabird guano, but you can make that decision. Seabird Guano will also be a P source, and you've go SO MANY P sources in your soil already! You also have N sources in the Worm Castings, Kelp Meal, and Compost, so there's no reason to have both guano's.
• Indonesian Bat Guano, Jamaican Bat Guano & Rock Phosphate are all sources of P. I'd go with one of the guano's, as guano acts as a nematicide in the soil ecosystem also, attracting microbes which will keep the predatory nematodes at bay, as well as speeding up decomposition of soil organic matter. I've never used the two amendments together,(a guano and rock phosphate) and have always had great results since I started with the Indonesian Bat Guano, so save some money buying one or the other. The Peruvian Seabird guano is also high in P, so you can honestly cut that out as well, or use it instead of any of the above. But looking at your soil mix, it looks like an overload of P. More is not better and you can actually poison your soil so to speak.
• You have both Kelp Meal and Greensand which will add an adequate amount of K to the equation, so this part of this mix is fine. You can use the Kelp Meal twice in your mix(2x) as it will also add humus content in the form of green matter, as well as various growth hormones and a slew or trace minerals! So between the Azomite and Kelp meal, all your micros will be covered. The Greensand is good too, but it's EXTRA slow release, so it might not be working in your soil until the end of your growing season, unless you "cook" the soil for a really long time, or you've recycled in and are using it for a 2nd or 3rd time. But that's fine. You're addition of Kelp Meal with do the job in regards to K.
• You have Crushed Oysters, Dolomite Lime, and Epsom Salt but you don't need them all. They're all forms of Cal, while the Dolomite and Epsom Salt add Mg also, but you'll get some Cal/Mg from your Earth Worm Castings as well. You can also add it later on, but both can raise your pH too much, and cause you problems. I would lose the lime and the Epsom Salt and use them later on if need be.

With all that said,^^^

Your mix is REALLY HEAVY! And over time as the microbes in the soil get to working on the things, the soils actually increase in nutrient concentration, so you probably have a toxic mix there, and probably experience all sorts of lock outs I could imagine.
I would guess that maybe 1/3 of your mix would need to be humus to bring enough microbes into the situation, to work on all the various amendments that you add. Why so much if I may?
Then when you throw humic/fulvic acids on top of all of that, which makes for a perfect storm!
It's like gasoline on the fire!

Lastly, no need to mix mycorrhiza into your soil mix. It needs to come into contact with living roots to germinate and go to work, so you'd be wasting it adding it to your soil.
I would save that for transplants and watering in, once you know you have some roots, so that you can pretty much guarantee colonization of your roots by the fungi.

Hope this helped some!
It would help us, to help you out more to know exactly how much soil you mixed, and how much of each amendments you mixed into the soil.
You might need to cut it with another bag of Promix, some compost, and more Earth Worm Castings if you added too much to it!
But more definitely is not better brother!

You could get by with a soil mix that looks like this, removing everything in red:

PRO-MIX BX
Perlite (additional)
Steer Manure/Compost
Mexican bat guano
Indonesian bat guano
Jamaican bat guano
Peruvian seabird guano
Earthworm castings
Kelp Meal
Epsom Salt
Greensand
Rock phosphate
Crushed oyster shells
Dolomite lime
Azomite (trace minerals)
Humic/Fulvic Acids (granular)
SubCulture M (Mycorrhizae)

and Blessings!

Ps, you could simplify it even more than that! And in regards to top dressing, I top dress wither week 2 or 3 of flower for the last time, depending on how long the strain is supposed to go.
A top dressing takes anywhere from 3-4 weeks to "kick in" so it's definitely something that you want to do proactively! I try to do them where the plants can get a recharge between weeks 6 and 8(indica and hybrids), which is when they supposedly do their swelling. With sativas I'd top dress accordingly.
And foliar feeding isn't enough to supply the plants with all the need. It's a supplemental "hold me over" type feeding situation.

 

[StickMan15]

Hey Brother, thank-you so much for taking so much time with me! Overwhelmed to say the least!

I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability at this point:

I'm not sure if you mean TLO as in The Rev's style of gardening, or if you just mean true living organics in terms of a living organic soil....

I should have been more concise, as I am coming to realize that TLO can be a fairly generic term, but yes, I do mean living organic soil.

It would help us, to help you out more to know exactly how much soil you mixed, and how much of each amendments you mixed into the soil.

I mixed 200 gallons +.
Here are the proportions per 15 gallons:
5-gal of promix bx ,
9.5 pounds of earthworm castings
.5 cup each of the quanos
1 cups kelp meal
.5 cup green sand
.5 cup rock phosphate
.5 cup epsom salts
2.5 lbs of crushed oyster shells
2 cups of dolomite lime
3 Tbl spoons of Humic acid
3 Tbl spoons of Azomite
2.8 gallons of Perlite
5-gal of compost

Why so much if I may?

When I first began researching cultivating Canna a year ago, and decided to go with TLO supersoil, I was on a small forum, and a brother that had been growing for many years mentored me concerning growing with living soil. He had switched from growing with bottled nutes, to living soil in just the last couple of years. He had stellar results using this 'recipe' with these proportions, as did I with my OD grow last year.

You actually confirmed my original suspicions that, my issues with my first indoor grow was either lock out, or toxicity or both, if that is possible, and not actual deficiencies in the soil.

I already re-amended some of the soil from last years OD soil, but still have some that I have not. I was planning on it here shortly, so that it would have an adequate of time to cook , before I put my OD gear out. Now I am glad that I did not pursue that yet, until I get this all sorted out. With my current re-amending, I only added a small amount of EWC, and no compost, but was planning on adding more, along with more perlite here shortly.

Not sure what I should do at this point before I do start my OD run this year. After reading your very detailed response, I am of the opinion, that I should possibly mix what I have already re- amended with that which I have not, and add more EWC and compost (for more humus) as well as more Pro-mix and perlite. The indoor gear that has been in veg for 6+ weeks appears to be very healthy at this point, but so did my current run that is closing out now. Not sure if I can do anything at this point with the gear that I am getting ready to flip, as they are in 7 gallon smart pots with this mix.

I am open for any and all recommendations on what to do with my current soil, both what I am now running, which again I re-amended, and that which has not been. I will indeed eliminate those amendments that you suggested that is overkill, but am now very concerned with all of the soil in its entirety, as I have so much of it.

Also, I know that it appeared with what I wrote, that I added dry SubCulture M (Mycorrhizae) to my mix, but I did/do actually just add it as a soil drench to my seedling mix, and at the time of transplant for both gear started from both seed and clones.

After reading your response, I am of the opinion that doing any top dressing at this point would only add to my woes. Am I correct in this assumption?

Hope I was able to make myself clear enough.Blessings to you, my brother.

 

[ProperGreen]

You're Welcome Brother! Nice, Detailed Response!

Hey Brother, thank-you so much for taking so much time with me! Overwhelmed to say the least!

I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability at this point:
I should have been more concise, as I am coming to realize that TLO can be a fairly generic term, but yes, I do mean living organic soil.

I mixed 200 gallons +.
Here are the proportions per 15 gallons:
5-gal of promix bx ,
9.5 pounds of earthworm castings
.5 cup each of the quanos
1 cups kelp meal
.5 cup green sand
.5 cup rock phosphate
.5 cup epsom salts
2.5 lbs of crushed oyster shells
2 cups of dolomite lime
3 Tbl spoons of Humic acid
3 Tbl spoons of Azomite
2.8 gallons of Perlite
5-gal of compost

When I first began researching cultivating Canna a year ago, and decided to go with TLO supersoil, I was on a small forum, and a brother that had been growing for many years mentored me concerning growing with living soil. He had switched from growing with bottled nutes, to living soil in just the last couple of years. He had stellar results using this 'recipe' with these proportions, as did I with my OD grow last year.

You actually confirmed my original suspicions that, my issues with my first indoor grow was either lock out, or toxicity or both, if that is possible, and not actual deficiencies in the soil.

I already re-amended some of the soil from last years OD soil, but still have some that I have not. I was planning on it here shortly, so that it would have an adequate of time to cook , before I put my OD gear out. Now I am glad that I did not pursue that yet, until I get this all sorted out. With my current re-amending, I only added a small amount of EWC, and no compost, but was planning on adding more, along with more perlite here shortly.

Not sure what I should do at this point before I do start my OD run this year. After reading your very detailed response, I am of the opinion, that I should possibly mix what I have already re- amended with that which I have not, and add more EWC and compost (for more humus) as well as more Pro-mix and perlite. The indoor gear that has been in veg for 6+ weeks appears to be very healthy at this point, but so did my current run that is closing out now. Not sure if I can do anything at this point with the gear that I am getting ready to flip, as they are in 7 gallon smart pots with this mix.

I am open for any and all recommendations on what to do with my current soil, both what I am now running, which again I re-amended, and that which has not been. I will indeed eliminate those amendments that you suggested that is overkill, but am now very concerned with all of the soil in its entirety, as I have so much of it.

Also, I know that it appeared with what I wrote, that I added dry SubCulture M (Mycorrhizae) to my mix, but I did/do actually just add it as a soil drench to my seedling mix, and at the time of transplant for both gear started from both seed and clones.

After reading your response, I am of the opinion that doing any top dressing at this point would only add to my woes. Am I correct in this assumption?

Hope I was able to make myself clear enough.Blessings to you, my brother.

Hey brother,

Nice, detailed response!
In seeing that you're mixing 200+ gallons of soil, I'm sort of overwhelmed lol!
I generally mix between 20-30 gallons at a time, so you're roughly doing 7-10x the numbers that I am!

But here are a couple things that I was taught this by someone who grew MUCH better plants than I ever imagined that I could at the time:

• Use 3-5cups of nutritional amendments per cubic foot(7.5gals) of soil mix. This includes your meals(Alfalfa Meal, Cottenseed Meal, Fish Bone Meal, Bone Meal, Blood Meal, Crab Meal etc.), your guanos(bat guanos, seabird guanos, insect guanos, etc.), and your all purpose organic fertilizers. This would also include the rock phosphate and oyster shell in your mix.
• The above doesn't include your mineral amendments like Azomite, Glacial Rock Dust, Excelerite, etc. In that regard you can use anywhere from 1-4cups per cubic foot of soil mix, depending on what you use, but these amendments aren't needed in high amounts, so you're ok using them in small amounts, especially when it comes to things like Azomite and Excelerite. The Glacial Rock dust or things like granite rock dust can be used a lot more liberally, as it acts sort of like anchors for the roots I've learned. Also, Kelp meal can be added to your mix safely at twice the amount of everything else. Once as a nutritional amendment, and once as a mineral amendment.

Also lime is not a must by any means. If your soil has a high enough humus content, this part of your soil will "buffer" your pH. And Epsom salt is HIGHLY water soluble, so it's not something you need to have in your soil. You can "feed" with it when you notice a need for it, if you notice a need for it, by dissolving it in the water before you water, because it so soluble.

But in looking at your mix, you're actually below the recommend amount that I would suggest!

You're at 4cups of nutritional amendments for 2 cubic feet(15gals) of soil. That's 2cups per cu ft.(not included the excessive amounts of lime and crushed oyster), which is less that the 3-5 that I'd recommend, and have always had success with.
So with that said, you probably are experiencing some deficiencies in addition to the lockouts! You have A LOT of oyster shell as well and lime in the mix. Definitely too much! You pH is probably too high to measure with a meter lol!

But in the end, I'd bump up the amount of amendments you use, add more humus(compost, EWCs, and some forest humus) if you can, and cut the lime out, and drastically reduce the about of crushed oyster shell to maybe 1cup per 15gals of you mix, max! I couldn't imagine getting awesome results with so much Ca in the soil to be honest! Don't quote me on this, but I think Gypsum might be useful to offset some of the Ca in your soil. Look into that!
Also seems you would need a lot more perlite! maybe twice the amount that you have it there! This just from the outside looking in tho! How has your drainage been?
Perlite also holds oxygen in the soil so it's good to have an adequate amount of it!

And you asked about topdressing, they take 3-4wks to become available for the most part, so use them with that in mind. Worm Castings are the exception to that as they're readily available to the soil. Try to topdress with some worm castings and compost mixed together, and see if you notice an improvement!

Hopefully you get everything figured out in a hurry brother!

& Blessings

 

[StickMan15]

Hey brother,
Thank-you once again for taking so much time with your response, and sharing so much great information with me. I want you to know that you are not sharing your knowledge/experience with me in vain, as I will apply what you share with me. I will also be doing much of my own research/reading to better understand the science.
You're at 4cups of nutritional amendments for 2 cubic feet(15gals) of soil. That's 2cups per cu ft.(not included the excessive amounts of lime and crushed oyster), which is less that the 3-5 that I'd recommend, and have always had success with.

So with that said, you probably are experiencing some deficiencies in addition to the lockouts! You have A LOT of oyster shell as well and lime in the mix. Definitely too much! You pH is probably too high to measure with a meter lol!

I do see where I am most likely experiencing both deficiencies in addition to some lockouts, as you observed. From what I am learning, an overabundance macro nutrients such as CA, can cause lock out of many other nutrients. I was able to turn this run around enough that it will not be a complete failure, but with very diminished yields. I did get a good soil PH probe a few weeks ago, and soil is running at 6.8 -7.0. All I know to do at this point, and have been doing, is to check my water, and buffer down to 6.0 before watering. Plants have been responding somewhat to this.

Use 3-5cups of nutritional amendments per cubic foot(7.5gals) of soil mix. This includes your meals(Alfalfa Meal, Cottenseed Meal, Fish Bone Meal, Bone Meal, Blood Meal, Crab Meal etc.), your guanos(bat guanos, seabird guanos, insect guanos, etc.), and your all purpose organic fertilizers. This would also include the rock phosphate and oyster shell in your mix.

Can you please give me an approximate volume of each of these amendments for the 3-5 cups per cft, or do I just need to add same amounts volume wise, i.e., .5 cup of Alfalfa Meal? I will also be looking into integrating Gypsum as well.

Also seems you would need a lot more perlite! maybe twice the amount that you have it there! This just from the outside looking in tho! How has your drainage been?

The volume of perlite in my previous list was incorrect. When I did my initial mix, I used my common sense and did add a lot more, but I was planning on still adding a lot more when I go to re-amend. The drainage is not bad at this time, but I know that I do need more oxygen.

Ok brother, I need to go out and start doing some serious snow removal. I will check back later.

Have a great one, and thank-you again for all of your assistance.

 

[ProperGreen]

You're Welcome Brother! And I Can Already See That You're Willing To Apply Yourself!

Hey brother,
Thank-you once again for taking so much time with your response, and sharing so much great information with me. I want you to know that you are not sharing your knowledge/experience with me in vain, as I will apply what you share with me. I will also be doing much of my own research/reading to better understand the science.
You're at 4cups of nutritional amendments for 2 cubic feet(15gals) of soil. That's 2cups per cu ft.(not included the excessive amounts of lime and crushed oyster), which is less that the 3-5 that I'd recommend, and have always had success with.

I do see where I am most likely experiencing both deficiencies in addition to some lockouts, as you observed. From what I am learning, an overabundance macro nutrients such as CA, can cause lock out of many other nutrients. I was able to turn this run around enough that it will not be a complete failure, but with very diminished yields. I did get a good soil PH probe a few weeks ago, and soil is running at 6.8 -7.0. All I know to do at this point, and have been doing, is to check my water, and buffer down to 6.0 before watering. Plants have been responding somewhat to this.

Can you please give me an approximate volume of each of these amendments for the 3-5 cups per cft, or do I just need to add same amounts volume wise, i.e., .5 cup of Alfalfa Meal? I will also be looking into integrating Gypsum as well.

The volume of perlite in my previous list was incorrect. When I did my initial mix, I used my common sense and did add a lot more, but I was planning on still adding a lot more when I go to re-amend. The drainage is not bad at this time, but I know that I do need more oxygen.

Ok brother, I need to go out and start doing some serious snow removal. I will check back later.

Have a great one, and thank-you again for all of your assistance.

Hey brother,

In regards to the specific amounts of each amendment, just go back to the rule of thumb, of 3-5 cups of nutritional amendments per cubic foot(7.5gals of base soil). These nutritional amendments are the things that your gonna use to feed the microbes in your soil, which will in turn become nutrition for you plants!
And when I say base soil, I mean the mix that you use that brings you to 7.5 gals of soil, which might look something like 3gals Promix Bx, 1.5gal earth worm castings, 1.5gals compost, and 1.5gal perlite.
But the way I do it, is I look at my amendments in pieces. N,P,K, and Cal,Mg. Then I look at my which amendments I'd like to use. I try to find amendments that all serve more than one purpose in the soil such as Alfalfa Meal, Kelp Meal, Bat Guano, Crushed Oyster, Crab Shell Meal, etc. Between the amendments I listed, you can get all your macros as well as a few growth hormones, some additional chitin which feed fungi and help strengthen out plants, a natural nematacide in the guano, and a slew of other valuable protein and amino acids. You also have to know that your compost and EWCs will be rich in nutrients, even tho we can't measure that NPK of these things, as the nutrients are locked up within the microbes that live there.
But look at my soil mix on my thread to kinda get an idea with where I'm going with this, and then let me know if you have any more questions.


Look at your mineralization amendments(Azomite, Excelerite, Granite Dust, Glacial Rock Dust) separately from this 3-5 cups, with the thought in mind that you don't need very much of these at all, but if you can find Glacial Rock Dust, or Granite Dust, you can use it liberally as it stands to act like anchors for the roots in the soil.
Not so much for the Azomite ann Excelerite as these are very rich sources. Kelp meal will also add A LOT of trace minerals that you need, so you can use the double time as both a mineral and nutrition amendment as I was saying earlier on.

And in regards to your pH, when you can get your amount of humus in the soil high enough, that will be your pH buffer, so you really won't need to worry about pH. 6.8-7 is a good pH to be at tho, in terms of an organic mix. Also, in regards to your humus content, you should try an diversify it a little. I use the bacterially dominant EWCs, as well as the fungi dominant Ancient Forest Humus. Previously I've work in a compost source to, but im experimenting a bit still, and left that out this mix. So we'll see how things go.

And in re-amending the soil, you sort of have to step back and look at your amendments and how long before they're available in the soil. Depending on the length of your grow, some amendments will be coming fully available the second or even third time you use the soil. Greensand is a prime example of that!
And out soil increase in nutrient concentration as they get older and are taken care of, so each time you re-amend the soil, you should be able to use less to re-amend it the next time.
I think you should get a soil test before you re-amend for sure! You might have to deal with all the Ca that you have in there in a big way, and I'm not exactly sure how you'd do that, so be sure to look into it.
On first thought I'd think by adding S, but I'm not sure 100%, so look into it for sure!

But I'd start with replenishing the humus content, so that you're adding more microbes to your soil to process the amendments within!

But I've got some work to do brother, so I'm signing out for a bit!
But I'll check in later to see where we are!
Speak soon!

& Blessings!