Experiment in topping

[IKilledIt]

Fairly new to growing. This is basically my 3rd grow. Instead of the usual topping methods at 5 nodes I waited. So what I did was let the plants veg naturally from October 1 when they were planted and topped them around November 28, give or take a day. I let the plants tops grow and recover. Then I flipped them December 8th. I was surprised by the results. The canopy has evened its self out beautifully with no training what so ever. I did this with all 10 plants. I did however get some serious stretch on a few but I think that was due to lighting but the the majority of the plants evened out the same. What do you think. This plant has 12 cola sites and the others are very similar. Thanks for reading.

This is a Blue Dream strain I got fromThe Seed Fair.

 

[Delps8]

Very nice looking canopy and well nourished plants. Great that you're get results like that with so little effort. Perhaps you have a green thumb!?

The light does look pretty high - what's the hang height? - but they do have lots of foliage and that's a strong indicator that they're getting good light.

You might want to get a lux meter. At $32, it's an inexpensive way to "remove all doubt" about light levels. More light, generally speaking, will lead to more cannabis.

 

[IKilledIt]

Thank you very much for the kind compliment. As for nourishment I’m feeding Advanced Nutrition about ever 3 days. I’m running 3 Mars Hydro TSW 2000’s and 2 Bloom Plus Xp 4000’s. I did have the lights around 15 to 18” above the plants but I saw some praying happening so I raised the lights about 6” so I’m running an average of 22 to 24” above. Thanks for commenting. Have a Great day.

 

[Delps8]

Thank you very much for the kind compliment. As for nourishment I’m feeding Advanced Nutrition about ever 3 days. I’m running 3 Mars Hydro TSW 2000’s and 2 Bloom Plus Xp 4000’s. I did have the lights around 15 to 18” above the plants but I saw some praying happening so I raised the lights about 6” so I’m running an average of 22 to 24” above. Thanks for commenting. Have a Great day.

Thank you for the explanation. That answers my unspoken questions.

I saw some praying happening so I raised the lights

Conventional wisdom says that "praying" is a sign that your plants are getting good light. Why did you decide to reduce the amount of light?

BTW, I believe that's a valid reaction but I'm interested in your reasoning.

 

[IKilledIt]

I raised them due to conflicting arguments. I read that it’s a good thing because it’s healthy and it’s in the sweet spot of the lights, then there’s the argument that it’s to much light. So with that being said I honestly just went with a happy medium.

 

[Delps8]

I raised them due to conflicting arguments. I read that it’s a good thing because it’s healthy and it’s in the sweet spot of the lights, then there’s the argument that it’s to much light. So with that being said I honestly just went with a happy medium.

I appreciate your candor.

I've gone with the conventional wisdom belief that it's a sign of plants that are in optimal conditions, esp. light levels. I wasn't aware that other conventional wisdom that meant that it was too much light.

Leaves turn away from light when hormones move from the exposed side to the shaded side. The increase in internal pressure allows the leaf to turn away from the light. As best I can find out, that's the mechanism that causes them to pray but praying is not considered a photo-avoidance reaction. Go figure.

When my plants have reacted like that, I take it as a good sign and my comment has been that they're so happy that "they should get a room".

My thinking, overall, is that it's a good sign but that it's on the edge of being a bit too much.

Back to your grow. It looks great. Lots of foliage ===> lots of flower ===> great harvest.

 

[marcus611a]

Thank you very much for the kind compliment. As for nourishment I’m feeding Advanced Nutrition about ever 3 days. I’m running 3 Mars Hydro TSW 2000’s and 2 Bloom Plus Xp 4000’s. I did have the lights around 15 to 18” above the plants but I saw some praying happening so I raised the lights about 6” so I’m running an average of 22 to 24” above. Thanks for commenting. Have a Great day.

praying is what you want it means your plants r happy. ne way looks good.

 

[IKilledIt]

@Delps8 I raised the lights 6” earlier today and they’re still focused upwards. The Mars Hydro manual says 12 to 18” in flower. So I’m thinking I’m still in the sweet spot at 22” to 24” because the plant beside it is a tad shorter. I to think as you as it’s a good thing. I’ll definitely keep an eye out for any signs of burn.

 

[Trump]

Training the plants is half the fun of growing!

Happy you found the benefits of topping. Just a suggestion but a couple weeks before I flip I also like to FIM all the areas I can on the plant. You'll be rewarded with lots of new bud sites just in time for the flowering period!

Personally, I push my plants as hard as I can throughout so praying leaves is perfect. I try and get it so that the top water leaves just begin to taco. This also helps me see where their PPFD limit is as I can measure the light energy coming from the light with my phone app. Once I have this I can use it as a ruler that tells me just how much they like to be pushed.

Looking Good!

 

[Delps8]

The reason I ask about praying is that the reason that they elevate like that is that hormones in the plant are moving away from the light source to the shaded side of the leaf - that's why they're elevated. I've only seen that at certain times of the growth cycle, though, even though I've had plants at up to 1200+µmol but they only pray during veg and, IIRC, early or mid-veg.

I've never seen a negative impact, hence my "they ought to get a room" comment but it's still interesting that how they react. Wonder why it only happens during certain parts of the lifecycle?

I use the regular ratchet hangers for my lights and, as best I can tell, each click is ¼" so raising the light just 4 clicks might be all that's needed. Or just drop the input wattage by a few watts.

If you've got a Mars SP 3000, there are two rocker switches. One turns the light on and off, the other turns it on to 300 watts. In one of my first grows, I clicked the wrong one - "Wow, look at that - the temp in the tent just took off!" That was my first lesson in leaves tacoing.

 

[IKilledIt]

@Trump Thanks for the comment. I’ve been wanting to possibly push the nutes on them. I did cut back on the Nitrogen from 8 ml per 2 liter to 4 ml. Then I raised the phosphorus and potassium from 8 ml per 2 liters to 10. I have a few leaves tacoing so I hope I’m in the ballpark on the nutes. I have hardly noticeable tip burn just whiting not yellowing. And yes I should have done some trimming and pruning before flip. But I got busy on a job for two weeks and didn’t do it. I did however take off a few low lying sucker branches and may take off more in a few days. But I know that can be hazardous in flower. So I may not risk it.

 

[IKilledIt]

@Delps8 I actually noticed it a few weeks ago and began to do some reading. Most articles I read were leaning towards the bright side of things. As praying leaves being a good thing. But here’s what I noticed.some would start praying a hour after lights on. Then through out the day some plants were praying while others weren’t. Than the opposite. Could it be that the sudden change from dark to extreme light could affect some strains instantly but other strains it affects over a period of time. Also I find it interesting that you say you’ve only seen it in vegging plants and I honestly never noticed it at all until this grow.

 

[Delps8]

@Delps8 I actually noticed it a few weeks ago and began to do some reading. Most articles I read were leaning towards the bright side of things. As praying leaves being a good thing. But here’s what I noticed.some would start praying a hour after lights on. Then through out the day some plants were praying while others weren’t. Than the opposite. Could it be that the sudden change from dark to extreme light could affect some strains instantly but other strains it affects over a period of time. Also I find it interesting that you say you’ve only seen it in vegging plants and I honestly never noticed it at all until this grow.

I think that's the pattern that I've noticed. I haven't journaled it so, take that with a grain of salt.

Re. change from light to dark - cannabis is a light whore responds very, very quickly to changes in light. I have zero belief that changes in PPFD cause any issues. Photosynthesis ramps up and down and, if there's too much light, the hormones in the leaves shuffle to the shade to cause photo avoidance. Paraphrasing Bugbee, plants are "ready to go as soon as they 'wake up' in the morning". During that same interview, he said that they had no qualms of taking plants from, say 400µmol to 1000µmol. A change like that can be done in a couple of days with no ill effects.

I just saw that Mars is offering settings in their dimmer to mimic sunrise and sunset. Assuming that you've got a light that can get your grow to 2000µmol, I can see the appeal. On the other hand, it's a lousy value. In terms of resource utilization, you've got to buy a humongo light to get to 2kµmol and then you're intentionally using it only at that level for a short period during the day. That's a waste of money. My grows have done just fine at 850-1050µmol.

The fact that almost nothing in the marketplace can hit 2kµmol at a normal hang height makes it a moot point. :-(

 

[Delps8]

@Trump Thanks for the comment. I’ve been wanting to possibly push the nutes on them. I did cut back on the Nitrogen from 8 ml per 2 liter to 4 ml. Then I raised the phosphorus and potassium from 8 ml per 2 liters to 10. I have a few leaves tacoing so I hope I’m in the ballpark on the nutes. I have hardly noticeable tip burn just whiting not yellowing. And yes I should have done some trimming and pruning before flip. But I got busy on a job for two weeks and didn’t do it. I did however take off a few low lying sucker branches and may take off more in a few days. But I know that can be hazardous in flower. So I may not risk it.

I was wondering if defol would come up!

You've got excellent foliage in there. Leave it!

I remove things after they're well into senescence or for air flow or if they have larfy buds but, other than that, I won't mess with them. They make food and cool the plant-no way I'm going to mess with that.

 

[IKilledIt]

@Delps8 I’ve basically just been removing leaves as the wither.

But the Mars lighting idea has crossed my mind before. Kinda the “ What if”. But wouldn’t the light spectrum have to change also ? Morning sun verses noon day sun verses evening sun. And as you mentioned you would only be able to use the most powerful led’s a small number of hour a day. Also I’m not very educated on lights, mols ect. I can’t even find that character you used.

 

[Trump]

@Trump Thanks for the comment. I’ve been wanting to possibly push the nutes on them. I did cut back on the Nitrogen from 8 ml per 2 liter to 4 ml. Then I raised the phosphorus and potassium from 8 ml per 2 liters to 10. I have a few leaves tacoing so I hope I’m in the ballpark on the nutes. I have hardly noticeable tip burn just whiting not yellowing. And yes I should have done some trimming and pruning before flip. But I got busy on a job for two weeks and didn’t do it. I did however take off a few low lying sucker branches and may take off more in a few days. But I know that can be hazardous in flower. So I may not risk it.

IMO, slight tip burn means you're right at the edge of what they like. Again, another indicator to what that specific cultivar likes and how much you can push it.

I would keep potassium at the same levels you were for now and only increase phosphorous. I would also suggest you go full strength on your Cal/Mag application. Right after flip until week 5 is where they really want to pull calcium and magnesium. I start to raise Potassium right around week 4 into week 6 -7. In flower less is more so you don't need to do such high PPM feeds as you do in Veg. In veg I go as high as 1200ppm but in flower I usually won't go more than 1000ppm.

This is a chart I use as a reference to tell me when and what the girls like at each particular stage of their growth.

One very valuable lesson I learned from a Master Grower when I was working at a licensed grow operation was if you want to see rapid growth you need to run higher temps, higher PPFD, medium humidity and high PPM feeds. The higher air temps will raise the leaf temp in the plant and increase the metabolic/photosynthetic processes happening. The higher plant temps will also raise the viscosity of the sap that is in your plant making it easier for the plant to move food throughout. The higher PPFD will give your plants more photons to be able to fuel the photosynthetic process, The medium to lowish humidity will allow more transpiration to happen and the high PPM feeds will supply the girls the fuel they need for their altered metabolic state. In my case I feed from a bottle so the food is already chelated and ready for uptake whereas someone that is growing organically has to count on the soil biology in the rhizosphere to be able to provide enough food for the plant. This is all a balancing act so you have to push them early on in each category to find out how much you can push them but when you can get it all dialed in you'll see explosive growth.

Everyone has their own way when it comes to defoliation. My concern isn't so much having food reservoirs, i.e. leaves at the ready as much as air circulation. I remove whatever leaves I feel will help keep mold and PM at bay by improving the air flow through the canopy. Remove the lower suckers whether you're in flower or not. They'll only rob the plant of the energy it uses to power up those main colas!! While I agree with @Delps8 about keeping leaves as a food reservoir look up Schwazzing. It's another defoliation technique that some claim improves their dry yields. Mature water leaves use a lot of energy to maintain themselves. I usually remove almost all of them when I defoliate and only leave the baby leaves.

I currently have a grow journal going on this site. I think I overdid it on the FIMming.

Trump Growing Jan6 OG

Not really. Just thought it would be funny if there was a strain like that to grow!!🤣 Growing some Florida Strawberry clones I clipped off my mother. 11/15/2023 Temp - 81.5* Humidity - 58% VPD - 1.59 kPa DLI - 41 Leaf Temp - 80* Netted the girls as they were getting too tall and the branches...

www.420magazine.com

Good Luck!

 

[Trump]

I think that's the pattern that I've noticed. I haven't journaled it so, take that with a grain of salt.

Re. change from light to dark - cannabis is a light whore responds very, very quickly to changes in light. I have zero belief that changes in PPFD cause any issues. Photosynthesis ramps up and down and, if there's too much light, the hormones in the leaves shuffle to the shade to cause photo avoidance. Paraphrasing Bugbee, plants are "ready to go as soon as they 'wake up' in the morning". During that same interview, he said that they had no qualms of taking plants from, say 400µmol to 1000µmol. A change like that can be done in a couple of days with no ill effects.

I just saw that Mars is offering settings in their dimmer to mimic sunrise and sunset. Assuming that you've got a light that can get your grow to 2000µmol, I can see the appeal. On the other hand, it's a lousy value. In terms of resource utilization, you've got to buy a humongo light to get to 2kµmol and then you're intentionally using it only at that level for a short period during the day. That's a waste of money. My grows have done just fine at 850-1050µmol.

The fact that almost nothing in the marketplace can hit 2kµmol at a normal hang height makes it a moot point. :-(

Most of the experts agree that anything above 1100µmol/m² is a waste unless you're using CO².

@IKilledIt - Alt Codes List of Alt Key Codes Symbols

 

[IKilledIt]

@Trump Wow Awesome grow. Water day is tomorrow. So I’ll adjust the nutes as recommended. I have been adding cal/mag at half strength. So I’ll go ahead and get that to full strength. Question how often should I add Cal/Mag. My tap water is around 120 ppm. Honestly I haven’t even checked the ppm’s this grow. I should probably do that to see where the ppm’s are ranging. I’d actually like to remove some of the lower sucker branches/ huge fan leaves. I have removed a few but didn’t want to stress the plants out to much. I’ll also look into the schwazzing technique. Also tomorrow will be Week 3 of flower.

 

[IKilledIt]

@Trump I did do a partial flush last water to get rid of excess salts. But the other reason was even after I watered and I watered slowly. I still felt dry soil around the edges of my pots. I just wanted to make sure all the soil was good and wet. I let the pots sit and fully drain. Then I made my normal feed with Cal/Mag and feed them 2 liters each. Ended with about 20% run off. The reason I raised the P&K was because I was seeing a slight phosphorous deficiency. Some of the larger fan leaves and smaller leaves were taking on a purple hue almost metallic. Mostly on older leaves. Thanx for all the information

 

[Trump]

@Trump Wow Awesome grow. Water day is tomorrow. So I’ll adjust the nutes as recommended. I have been adding cal/mag at half strength. So I’ll go ahead and get that to full strength. Question how often should I add Cal/Mag. My tap water is around 120 ppm. Honestly I haven’t even checked the ppm’s this grow. I should probably do that to see where the ppm’s are ranging. I’d actually like to remove some of the lower sucker branches/ huge fan leaves. I have removed a few but didn’t want to stress the plants out to much. I’ll also look into the schwazzing technique. Also tomorrow will be Week 3 of flower.

Cal/Mag at every feeding. LED's seem to drive the plant to require more calcium and magnesium than if I was growing under an HID light. Don't know why but it's just an observation that I have come to after a few grows.

My tapwater ranges from 20 - 80 ppm. I have an RO unit under my kitchen sink but the PPM is so low out of the tap I figure it's better to give them the tap water as it already contains some of the minerals it will need like calcium and magnesium. Our water dept doesn't overdo it on the chloramines so I can usually feed straight from the tap without having to "gas" the water beforehand to evaporate whatever chlorine the muni used to clean the water.

I don't bother measuring anymore because I can eyeball it pretty good along with using my PPM/EC meter. Cal/Mag, and Mono Silicic Acid if I'm using it at the time, go in first. Clone/Seed to veg I add a little Hormex and Voodoo Juice to get root development going but I don't really use much as far as amendments. I don't use bloom boosters or anything like that. Base and Cal/Mag for the most part.