Cannabis is too complex!

[J Obadiah]

This is just a random post that I hope will initiate a good dialogue.

Cannabis has been around longer than humankind has. It managed to grow into the wondrous plant that it is over millennia and millennia.

But right around the mid-20th century or so, we began to investigate the practical medicinal uses of cannabis in earnest. From then until now, growers, farmers, patients, connoisseurs, companies, and well-intentioned amateurs have transformed Cannabis into what it is today.

Unfortunately, Cannabis is way too complex. The things we do in order to achieve massive yields and sexy nugs are incredibly involved. We are constantly saying, "Mimic nature to the extent possible", but it feels like as human beings, we just cant help ourselves from tinkering with recipes, changing ingredients to more closely fit our liking, and over doing everything along the way.

So there it is...I am not knocking industry or any specific growers, methodologies, techniques or strategies, rather I'm arguing that its amazing how far we've come from sunlight, water, and time. It makes me wonder what cannabis can truly be without our enhancements. Could we still make a viable, potent, sexy product like we do now? Or does what we do with the cannabis absolutely need to be done because there are no other alternatives?

Obadiah

 

[Oldbear]

I think the prohibition has / had a lot to do with growing complexity because people came indoors out of stealth necessity. Add in the desire to maximize yield and potency. Processing cannabis prior to consumption can be very complicated as well.

I like things simple and basic and natural. I grow outdoors where the plants are able to to a large extent look after themselves. I'm slowly working on 'living soil' with the hope that adding nutes through the grow isn't needed.

I treat cannabis like a vegetable. I consume it in many forms all the time to keep a constant intake of cannabinoids. The most complicated thing I do is to bake some in edible oils and take that sublingually.

I have developed a secret patent pending method of doubling my yield. I grow a second plant

 

[GrizzWald]

Around the mid 20th century lmfao..

 

[J Obadiah]

Around the mid 20th century lmfao..

Lol well i didnt wanna say 1960s or 1970s because as far as complexity in cultivation goes, the process started much earlier for some, later for others.

 

[GrizzWald]

Or ealier
From medical marijuana history timeline..
2900 BC - Chinese Emperor Fu Hsi References Marijuana as a Popular Medicine

Emperor Fu Hsi
Source: jaars.org (accessed May 25, 2010)
"The Chinese Emperor Fu Hsi (ca. 2900 BC), whom the Chinese credit with bringing civilization to China, seems to have made reference to Ma, the Chinese word for Cannabis, noting that Cannabis was very popular medicine that possessed both yin and yang."

Robert Deitch Hemp: American History Revisited: The Plant with a Divided History, 2003

2700 BC - Chinese Emperor Shen Nung Said to Discover Healing Properties of Marijuana
"According to Chinese legend, the emperor Shen Nung (circa 2700 BC; also known as Chen Nung) [considered the Father of Chinese medicine] discovered marijuana's healing properties as well as those of two other mainstays of Chinese herbal medicine, ginseng and ephedra."

Janet Joy, PhD Alison Mack Marijuana as Medicine: Beyond the Controversy, 2001

1500 BC - Earliest Written Reference to Medical Marijuana in Chinese Pharmacopeia
"The use of cannabis for purposes of healing predates recorded history. The earliest written reference is found in the 15th century BC Chinese Pharmacopeia, the Rh-Ya."

National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) Marijuana Research Findings: 1976, 1977

 

[Bud]

Mj seeds were found in the tombs of Egypt, howed u like to pop a few of them, talk about heirloom seed,just copping a buzz on the top of the pyramids must have been a real trip.

 

[J Obadiah]

Or ealier
From medical marijuana history timeline..
2900 BC - Chinese Emperor Fu Hsi References Marijuana as a Popular Medicine

Emperor Fu Hsi
Source: jaars.org (accessed May 25, 2010)
"The Chinese Emperor Fu Hsi (ca. 2900 BC), whom the Chinese credit with bringing civilization to China, seems to have made reference to Ma, the Chinese word for Cannabis, noting that Cannabis was very popular medicine that possessed both yin and yang."

Robert Deitch Hemp: American History Revisited: The Plant with a Divided History, 2003


2700 BC - Chinese Emperor Shen Nung Said to Discover Healing Properties of Marijuana
"According to Chinese legend, the emperor Shen Nung (circa 2700 BC; also known as Chen Nung) [considered the Father of Chinese medicine] discovered marijuana's healing properties as well as those of two other mainstays of Chinese herbal medicine, ginseng and ephedra."

Janet Joy, PhD Alison Mack Marijuana as Medicine: Beyond the Controversy, 2001​

1500 BC - Earliest Written Reference to Medical Marijuana in Chinese Pharmacopeia
"The use of cannabis for purposes of healing predates recorded history. The earliest written reference is found in the 15th century BC Chinese Pharmacopeia, the Rh-Ya."

National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) Marijuana Research Findings: 1976, 1977

Dude.....you totally wasted your time. I am WELL acquainted with the history of Cannabis as a historian lol. Its ok.

My point wasnt about how long we've used cannabis, but about the period of time during which the cultivation of cannabis became increasingly complex and filled with intricacies. THAT didnt start in earnest until the 1960s and 1970s--with the advent of new tech like hydroponics, dwc and the intro of bottled nutrients and amendments. Thats what I was talking about. Sorry it wasnt clear enough for you to gather that, but I did talk about complexity as the primary component of my post, so I'm not entirely certain how you mismanaged that read, but its cool.

 

[J Obadiah]

Mj seeds were found in the tombs of Egypt, howed u like to pop a few of them, talk about heirloom seed,just copping a buzz on the top of the pyramids must have been a real trip.

Really....can you tell me who found them and when? I'll also need to know how they were confirmed to be Cannabis and by whom.

 

[GrizzWald]

well if one knew how to write and convey their meaning. And this one learn to read whole thing.. You speak of the complexity and talk of nutrients and growing styles..what are you talking about? I think you need to think a little man, lol.. are you talking about the hybridisation of cannabis?

 

[GrizzWald]

 

[TheFertilizer]

It's a pretty simple thing to add in parenthetical that Western medicine was certainly lagging behind other cultures in acknowledging the medicinal uses of cannabis.

I don't think it's extremely relevant to the OP's point though. For the sake of brevity I think it's very simple to infer he specified that period of time because that's when modern horticultural and medical sciences were applied to cannabis.

I would say there needs to be some definining moment where man's use and cultivation of cannabis stepped out of the ancient and into the modern epoch.

If I am understanding the OP right, I think he would consider that moment to be when scientists identified the active ingredient as THC. From that point on, it opened the doors for the type of selective breeding that was, without question, inaccessible to ancient cultures--at least as far as we know.

Yes dozens of ancient cultures recognized the therapeutic effects, but could they analyze the plant matter to target high concentration of a specific cannabinoid? If they could it would also imply a a level of medical knowledge that would entail knowing the complex effects of different molecular compounds on our brain chemistry.

In simpler terms... Ancients knew to remove males, to concentrate the resin with hashish, etc. They had a rough idea of what to do to make it more potent. We are now at a point where we know how to make it more potent, as well as individually tailor the presence of particular cannabinoids like THCV, CBD, etc.

Most of the high potency varieties we have now are hybrids developed with the ability to analyze potency levels and then use that data in tightly controlled breeding programs. However, some of them do really well in the wild as well.

The question I think I am getting is: Would cannabis have ever got this potent without that modern intervention, in the wild or using antiquated selective breeding techniques?

 

[GrizzWald]

It's uses were for particular ailments.. science proves or disproves the ancient ways.. knowledge just evolves and you lose as much as you gain. Gain just moves you forward before you look back and search for what you lost.... chakras?
Was cannabis traded? Seeds swapped or only traded to those without? When/where were the first hybrids? Not sure I agree with the potency but I don't think the thc levels would have got as high without international seed and clone trading.. as for nutrients and hydro etc, blah blah blah

 

[Weaselcracker]

Maybe he’s trying to say that growing methods and medical aspects of cannabis have become more complex, or more varied? ?

 

[Aroxol]

 

[Bud]

Really....can you tell me who found them and when? I'll also need to know how they were confirmed to be Cannabis and by whom.

WOW, calm down,The Egyptians were using mj in more ways then we know of now ! Do your research ! And if u want to go for a ride in the way back machine b My jest

 

[J Obadiah]

It's a pretty simple thing to add in parenthetical that Western medicine was certainly lagging behind other cultures in acknowledging the medicinal uses of cannabis.

I don't think it's extremely relevant to the OP's point though. For the sake of brevity I think it's very simple to infer he specified that period of time because that's when modern horticultural and medical sciences were applied to cannabis.

I would say there needs to be some definining moment where man's use and cultivation of cannabis stepped out of the ancient and into the modern epoch.

If I am understanding the OP right, I think he would consider that moment to be when scientists identified the active ingredient as THC. From that point on, it opened the doors for the type of selective breeding that was, without question, inaccessible to ancient cultures--at least as far as we know.

Yes dozens of ancient cultures recognized the therapeutic effects, but could they analyze the plant matter to target high concentration of a specific cannabinoid? If they could it would also imply a a level of medical knowledge that would entail knowing the complex effects of different molecular compounds on our brain chemistry.

In simpler terms... Ancients knew to remove males, to concentrate the resin with hashish, etc. They had a rough idea of what to do to make it more potent. We are now at a point where we know how to make it more potent, as well as individually tailor the presence of particular cannabinoids like THCV, CBD, etc.

Most of the high potency varieties we have now are hybrids developed with the ability to analyze potency levels and then use that data in tightly controlled breeding programs. However, some of them do really well in the wild as well.

The question I think I am getting is: Would cannabis have ever got this potent without that modern intervention, in the wild or using antiquated selective breeding techniques?

Thank you very very much, you are correct. Very good points all around.

 

[Jackalope]

Marijuanas complexity is the main reason it has been around so much. It can do so many things from making rope and clothes to medicine.

Add in human nature to bend things to our will. You can take a complex object to so many places.

 

[J Obadiah]

Marijuanas complexity is the main reason it has been around so much. It can do so many things from making rope and clothes to medicine.

Add in human nature to bend things to our will. You can take a complex object to so many places.

Its true, our ability to create and cannabis' natural multifaceted nature is a combination that will invariably continue to lead to unparalleled complexity, uniqueness, and novelty.

 

[TheFertilizer]

Let's all reset, smoke a bowl, chill and look at the bigger picture.

I think one of the places this conversation would have gotten to earlier if it'd gone a bit smoother, is how hybridization might affect wild populations of cannabis and whether all our modern "progress" is really a good thing for us and the plant.

Some would say that humans have far too much hubris, and I would agree at the risk of sounding misanthropic. It's kind of like when a kid takes something apart to figure out how it works, and then puts it together again all proud of themselves, never realizing said thing doesn't quite work the way it should ever again. The kid goes on feeling proud in his ability to reverse engineer and re-engineer, and the analogy works pretty well for the are influence our environment. There's no shortage of folly to point out, but just two words can sum it up: Cane toad. Long story short, a lot of the times when we think we've got nature all figured out, and try to exact our brilliant solutions, we only end up making things much worse. It's like the lyric in that Blue Oyster Cult song, "History shows us again and again how nature points out the folly of man."

I think the big threat in a nutshell is that this "Bigger, faster, stronger," type of breeding programs we have in domestication is going to spill-over and supplant wild populations of cannabis. That may be a problem because while we may think that what we're breeding is, "Bigger, faster, stronger," it may actually be also be, "Weaker against this pathogen, insanely susceptible to pests, and carrying a genetic mutation." If you want to look up a handy example of how nature has punked out humanity's complexity in that vein, look up "The Texas Strain".

I think there's a very strong argument to be made that our advanced knowledge of cannabis may not be serving us as much as we think it is, and may be threatening the survival of the plant as we know it. You have to take into consideration the ancient history of cannabis, because all of this modern complexity is really a flash in the pan compared to the thousands of years that we've been using and growing it in simpler ways. We may owe the existence of cannabis to wiser, more prudent cultures that knew to preserve it rather than exploit it relentlessly.

On the other hand, just understanding and saying all of this ( as a lay person ) is the result of a lot of advanced scientific knowledge we've acquired concerning the environment in general. Not to turn this into a climate-change type discussion, but if we could learn how to be a little more responsible with things, we could actually use this knowledge to ensure the preservation of cannabis in the wild. If we stop and think now before we go "industrial" with it, we might be able to avoid another folly.

In my opinion as it stands now, we're really poised for another. Large corporations don't have a strong interest in the environment or securing cannabis within it, and if something like a Texas-Strain scenario happens with cannabis it's going to be the corporate entities and their industrialization of cannabis that spurs it. I think that's why there's so much animosity against modern scientific progress surrounding cannabis, because the agenda behind it isn't really the one that's going to ensure its free existence for mankind, but rather is the one more likely to monopolize it into a monoculture and threaten its existence in the wild.

Now to undercut the seriousness of this diatribe I offer another pop-culture quote: With great power, comes great responsibility. I agree that we have more knowledge and scientific understanding of cannabis that we've ever had before as a civilization ( at least to our current level of knowledge ) but are we really using that understanding for good?

To me this is the big picture: Has this knowledge done more to ensure the free existence of cannabis for human consumption world-wide, or done more to threaten that?

 

[Bud]

The strains ( unmolested ) by man are still in existence today 3th world countries around the world are still doing it old school, without any help from modernization or chemicals, just a bit of fertilizer,sun,and H20. The One thing I hope (dreamer) is that somewhere there’s fields of the best unmolested weed yet to b discovered by modern man, if I found it I wouldn’t tell a sole,would u?