A few issues it seems in flower Day 27

[Okie Smokey]

What do you folks think ? I discovered some RO water had turned down into the 4.5 ph range. and have been noticing a progressive yellowing up of the previously deep verdant green leaf color. these tips, as you can probably see are uniform in their tip browning and drying up. Over the last few days this has been slowly advancing up-leaf. Growing in FFOF soil in 3.7 gallon plastic buckets, typically alternating nutes and RO water every two days roughly. Plant is Eleven Roses and demands this watering schedule. Easy to track as I weigh the container. pH's have been back in range for irrigation for 4-6 days. Have stopped CaMg additions for a couple of weeks or so.

Appreciate any observations/ wisdom you may offer. Thanks very much.

 

[Okie Smokey]

comparison photo's from 4/15

 

[Bill284]

comparison photo's from 4/15

Good morning my friend.
Beautiful garden.
Some tip burn isn't the worst thing.
Usually not a problem.
The early fading of color is a bit of a concern.
Are you getting run off every time you water?
Your feeding schedule f/w is good.
Do you give full strength nutrients according to the schedule?
Also calmag in your plain water first helps with uptake of other nutrients aswell.
Might be good to add it again?




#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284

 

[Emilya Green]

Please tell us about your nutes. I see the beginnings of a potassium deficiency. The very tips of your leaves are not just white, but necrotic. Are you scrimping on your nutes? The pH thing concerns me too... are you storing mixed nutes expecting it to remain stable? If we are talking about the water... a bucket of water mixes with the co2 in the air, and this does change the pH over time.

 

[bluter]

agree with above. get back with the cal-mag, and you are underfeeding or imbalanced for flower. the plant may have got ahead of your schedule.

edit : you might wanna try a f/f/w schedule instead of f/w/f/w.

 

[SmokingWings]

the plant may have got ahead of your schedule.

Interesting way of saying it but it is an good way of describing what happens once flowering starts.

 

[SmokingWings]

Have stopped CaMg additions for a couple of weeks or so.

As already mentioned but it could be a good thing to resume. The benefits will outweigh the costs.

 

[Okie Smokey]

Good morning my friend.
Beautiful garden.
Some tip burn isn't the worst thing.
Usually not a problem.
The early fading of color is a bit of a concern.
Are you getting run off every time you water?
Your feeding schedule f/w is good.
Do you give full strength nutrients according to the schedule?
Also calmag in your plain water first helps with uptake of other nutrients aswell.
Might be good to add it again?




#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284

Hello Bill ! Great to hear from you again. Thank you very much for your post and interest. Please see my response to your questions below where I will also add some new photos and address Emillia and others kind interest. Thanks again my friend.

 

[Okie Smokey]

First let me thank all of you personally for your interest, observations and inquiry. You all are a thoughtful credit to the forum and to everyone you engage. My great appreciation to you all;

Bill284
Emilya Green
bluter
SmokingWings

Let me secondly share images from the tent today and then I will answer/ respond to your observations and questions.

As you know, it's often difficult to get accurate images regarding color when photographing "under the lights". I am running two Viparspectra units - a vertically hung XS 2000 (output 220W) and a vertically hung 600W (outputting approx 200W). Overhead is an 4' 8 place Sun System, Sun Blaze T5HO 48 with upgraded AgroLED iSUNLIGHT tubes (4 5500K full color spectrum tubes and 4 Bloom tubes; each tube is 41W power consumption). I've never been able to find what the output wattage is for these AgroLED tubes, sorry. When the plant is outside the ten t in daylight it doesn't present with quite the yellowing and other oddities the camera is tricked into producing. Ah well....

Here we go. Images from an hour ago.

IMG_1182_smaller.jpg

• Okie Smokey
• Apr 27, 2023

health issue 4/27 - Eleven Roses day in flower 32

IMG_1183_smaller.jpg

• Okie Smokey
• Apr 27, 2023

health issue 4/27 - Eleven Roses day in flower 32

IMG_1185_smaller.jpg

• Okie Smokey
• Apr 27, 2023

health issue 4/27 - Eleven Roses day in flower 32

IMG_1186_smaller.jpg

• Okie Smokey
• Apr 27, 2023

health issue 4/27 - Eleven Roses day in flower 32

IMG_1191_smaller.jpg

• Okie Smokey
• Apr 27, 2023

health issue 4/27 - Eleven Roses day in flower 32

IMG_1192_smaller.jpg

• Okie Smokey
• Apr 27, 2023

health issue 4/27 - Eleven Roses day in flower 32

 

[Okie Smokey]

To your points:

Bill284 -
The early fading of color is a bit of a concern. (Yes it has been to me too as well as the tip burn which is slowly advancing stemward)
Are you getting run off every time you water? (No, actually, rarely get much at all. It's a 3.7 gallon container and I have been judging watering needs by container weight dry and wet. Early on in the scheduling I noticed when the plant would wilt down, then watered slowly till some run off appeared. Then weighed the container. I monitor the humidity closely and correlate with how the plant transpo-evaporates through a 24 hr period. Now watering appprox every 40-48 hrs and according to the container weight. So still not much runoff. Typically now, the container takes about 14-16 cups (8oz). I water when the container weights in the neighborhood of 15.8-16.2 lbs and when full with just a little runoff it weighs 22-23 lbs.)
Your feeding schedule f/w is good. (I ran TDS nute feed of between 1250 and 1400 ppm in late vegetative and now in flower. I did take a period where I double irrigated with my ph'd RO water consecutively)
Do you give full strength nutrients according to the schedule? (See above)
Also calmag in your plain water first helps with uptake of other nutrients as well. (I used CalMG) late in the 56 day vegetative stage, but have not been a diligent applicator. I have had others suggest I need to restart the CalMag and I did so in todays watering. I have added it to my nutrient feed water at 1.5 ml per gallon.)
Might be good to add it again? (yes, but for how long. It can also be problematic)


Please forgive me everyone but I have to make an appointment shortly and willget back to you all in a few hours. Thanks for your patience.

 

[Bill284]

To your points:

Bill284 -
The early fading of color is a bit of a concern. (Yes it has been to me too as well as the tip burn which is slowly advancing stemward)
Are you getting run off every time you water? (No, actually, rarely get much at all. It's a 3.7 gallon container and I have been judging watering needs by container weight dry and wet. Early on in the scheduling I noticed when the plant would wilt down, then watered slowly till some run off appeared. Then weighed the container. I monitor the humidity closely and correlate with how the plant transpo-evaporates through a 24 hr period. Now watering appprox every 40-48 hrs and according to the container weight. So still not much runoff. Typically now, the container takes about 14-16 cups (8oz). I water when the container weights in the neighborhood of 15.8-16.2 lbs and when full with just a little runoff it weighs 22-23 lbs.)
Your feeding schedule f/w is good. (I ran TDS nute feed of between 1250 and 1400 ppm in late vegetative and now in flower. I did take a period where I double irrigated with my ph'd RO water consecutively)
Do you give full strength nutrients according to the schedule? (See above)
Also calmag in your plain water first helps with uptake of other nutrients as well. (I used CalMG) late in the 56 day vegetative stage, but have not been a diligent applicator. I have had others suggest I need to restart the CalMag and I did so in todays watering. I have added it to my nutrient feed water at 1.5 ml per gallon.)
Might be good to add it again? (yes, but for how long. It can also be problematic)


Please forgive me everyone but I have to make an appointment shortly and willget back to you all in a few hours. Thanks for your patience.

If you use it constantly ( calmag ) from veg it sometimes requires a flush.
Especially if you don’t get run off.
My catch trays are full of salts.
If I don’t get a good runoff it builds up in the pots.
Put calmag in your plain water first.
Then your nutrients according to the schedule.
And make sure you get a runoff.
You have roots at the bottom that need nutrients as well.
I don’t measure nutrients, I keep feeding until I see it pour out the bottom.
I run coco so it’s a bit different.
But I never need to flush.
I’m sure I missed a ton but others will pitch in with some good advice shortly I’m sure.
Hope your appointment went well.
Talk soon.




#VIVOSUN#Love What You Grow
Bill284

 

[Emilya Green]

I want to give a tip of the hat toward Bill, even though I disagree with a diagnosis that has calcium or magnesium in deficiency. Also, in a salt lockout, we usually see signs of multiple deficiencies and these are some of the hardest to diagnose because of all the complications the salt causes when blocking uptake of everything. Here, I see zero signs of any of these aforementioned difficulties. I do however see the scavenging of potassium from leaves all over the plant, and a gradual yellowing starting from the bottom and moving upwards. Potassium being one of your macro nutrients, and also a mobile nutrient in the plant, is indicated by both of these symptoms, the fact that it is moving upwards and that it is presenting all over the plant.

This is why I asked about your feed. I am a soil grower, so I never learned about EC or PPM as a hydro grower would, so I don't know at all what your numbers may mean. I only know what I can clearly see on your plant... it is being underfed. It needs more of its macro nutrient... the one it is now stealing from your leaf tips. A tip burn doesn't always mean that you are overfeeding... this tip burn is classic potassium deficiency and you need to get on top of this before things get ugly.

 

[Okie Smokey]

Afternoon everyone ! Sorry to have bugged out on you. After my visit to the ophthalmologist my pupils stayed so dilated and cloudy from glare I couldn't even look at a computer screen for hours. Then we had unexpected company.

I think everyone has provided some really valuable insight, questions, experiences and advice so far. Several which in my discovery and investigation prove to be likely correct, AND some very correct. Perhaps obviously to most everyone (others outside this forum thread also) it's a nutrient + or - issue, with all the potential complications of interacting factors and conditions. Emiliya you're right, the potassium deficiency appearance is almost textbook, right ? So, quizzing me to " Please tell us about your nutes", in detail would be really helpful. It certainly made me reflect and retrace my diary notes. Then I had some questions regarding the AN schedule I couldn't get answered at the company right away. So, not that I don't want to share, but that's a discussion I feel could be time consuming and I felt I should do something more aggressive... I want to take as little time as possible to get the plant back and myself back on the same page/ schedule... "... you are underfeeding or imbalanced for flower. the plant may have got ahead of your schedule..../...an good way of describing what happens once flowering starts...; bluter; smokingwings". So, I flushed it. Long night las night. In short, I pH'd my good tap well water and put about 7 gallons through the pot. I tested runoff capture until my meter tested 662 ppm. My tap water TDS'd to 319 ppm according to THE METER. I let her drain out till she didn't, then I sprayed her down with a solution of Lost Coast Plant Therapy and put her back in the tent. I turned the lights down for the last 40 minutes of the schedule (off at 10:00 pm) and we all went to bed.

The lights stayed on reduced while I putzed around the house this morning. I decided to get my TDS meter tested by a local shop with whom I work. Holy CRAP !! My man Jeff who is a cannawonk, fussed over it, scratched his head and said as we were doing the EC TDS conversions, "it's gotta be wrong". Unfortunately the meters manufacturer was less than precise in their manual identifying which EC scale they used. However the manual also encouraged "calibrating the device regularly" (even though they provide no physical way to calibrate the device...). We new it would likely be one of two possible scales (500 and 700). However even then when we interpolated between the scales the meter would still be reading too high for the calibration solution. Enjoining this exercise there was a long animated conversation and much emphatic punctuation and arm-waving.

Soooooo, YES. The plant was being underfed. In every way. We determined the meter was reading roughly in the range of 28%-33% higher according to the 2.666 ec of the calibration solution. So each feeding was short nutrients by a third, give or take. In light of this, everything really kinda' made sense to me (hard-smack my forehead now ...). Adjustments to the rest of the feeding solution readings will be accounted for going forward. I'm sure the plant will be happier. I will be adding CaMg back into my schedule at a low dosage primarily for the little nitrogen boost for maybe another two non-feed irrigations. Then two weeks of Advanced Nutrients, Overdrive, during which trichomes will start getting tighter scrutiny. Finally a week to ten days of AN, Flawless Finish (through the flush) and deciding when to stop hydration altogether. All of the preceding finishing elements based on the what the plant and the trichomes are itelling where they are. Like bluter has reminded us, according to her schedule.

I remain interested and appreciative of anything you good folks would like to say or share. If you believe I should be doing something else/ different or otherwise, please share. My feelings right now are that this threads discussion was very important in helping me think and act through, to what I believe will be a success with this plant. I'm certainly open to continuing the conversation. I love and appreciate opportunity to interact and gain whatever fun and education we can have. Again thanks so much to you all. It's been very enlightening. I look forward to your company.

Oh, and I'll post photographs as I can throughout the process. Bill284 is a great role model for photo-recording the journey. Check his diary sometime.

 

[SmokingWings]

Let me secondly share images from the tent today and then I will answer/ respond to your observations and questions.

What I noticed in this new set of photos is that your plant is pretty nice looking. You did a good job is getting it as huge as it is.

I do think that the size of the plant in a 3.7 gallon pot is part of the problem. There is not enough Fox Farms Ocean Forest soil there to support a plant that size all the way through flowering. Next time try a 5 gallon container; a 7 gallon would be better.

It is unlikely that you will eliminate the color changes in the leaves but you should be able to slow down the changes and keep more leaves from turning yellow. Changes will still keep happening but I figure you will be able to get it under some sort of control and have a better idea of what is happening. That will help on the next grow.

 

[Okie Smokey]

What I noticed in this new set of photos is that your plant is pretty nice looking. You did a good job is getting it as huge as it is.

I do think that the size of the plant in a 3.7 gallon pot is part of the problem. There is not enough Fox Farms Ocean Forest soil there to support a plant that size all the way through flowering. Next time try a 5 gallon container; a 7 gallon would be better.

It is unlikely that you will eliminate the color changes in the leaves but you should be able to slow down the changes and keep more leaves from turning yellow. Changes will still keep happening but I figure you will be able to get it under some sort of control and have a better idea of what is happening. That will help on the next grow.

That’s a good observation SmokingWings. And, one I’d probably apply for the next time. It’s been a manageable container generally but around my last defoliation it was a tremendous bush. Yet from the soil surface it’s just a little over 29 1/2” tall. Agree also about the natural maturing of the foliage color. I just take them when I know they are not beneficial anymore and the energy could be better spent on the flowers.

Last night as I did that last 1/4 turn of the day a couple of hours before lights out she was pumping like crazy. I had to fan the tent flap to get the rH down to something acceptable before the cool down from the photoperiod. Seems to be recovering nicely from the flush and going through the soaking she got.

Again, thanks for your post and interest.