PH and PPM explained by member PeeJay

Cannafan;1976134 said:
Here is an excellent read sent to me by PeeJay regarding my question on PPM/PH
I now understand Parts per Million (PPM) which is going to help me with a lot of things here regarding my water, not just my grow.
Thank you PeeJay! Not only for the information, but the time you spent on it!:thanks:

PH and PPM:
I'll do as best I can with this question, putting it into laymen's terms. pH is a measure of hydrogen ion concentration. At 7.0 the solution is neither an acid nor a base. Below 7.0 things become more acidic. Above 7.0 things become increasingly base.

PPM is a measure of the minerals and stuff in water, or nutrients combined with the water. In general, the two biggest contributors to PPM in water from a well or the tap are calcium and magnesium. Things like selenium, copper, iron, and chlorine are all in water too. The more of these things that are in the water or water nutrient mix, the higher the PPM (parts per million.) When you dip a meter in water or water nutrient mix, it tells you how much other stuff is in the water besides just pure water - water is only hydrogen and oxygen stuck together. The PPM meter does not tell you anything about how much of each thing is in the water. It just tells you how much non-water chemicals are in solution with the water. If your water comes from a limestone aquifer it has more calcium in it, for example, but the meter won't tell you that. It only tells you how much stuff is dissolved in the water all lumped together.

Ok, some people, and especially hydroponics growers, measure the PPM of the water after adding nutrients. This is a way of knowing how much nutrients are dissolved in the water after mixing it up. You know the PPM of the water you're adding the nutrients to. You measure the PPM after the adding the nutes, and you know how much of the nutrients you've added. It is a way of measuring nutes just like a big syringe, or other liquid volume measuring container. It is a more accurate way of measuring how much nutrients are in the reservoir or the water mixed with nutrients you are going to feed your plants in soil than only measuring the volume of nutrients in a syringe or measuring glass or whatever.

The PPM tells you nothing about the ratio of the different nutrients and stuff in the water/feed mix. It is just an indicator of the strength of the mix. The ratio of the different nutrients is only known from how much of each thing is in the nutrients you are mixing with the water, and knowing what is in your water already. You can do the math and figure it out somewhat accurately if you are mathematically inclined. There are already nutrients and often added fluoride for dental health (or bad things like chlorine, lead, tritium, perchlorate, etc) in the water before you add nutes.

If you measure the PPM of your tap water five times in a week there will be variation each time - hopefully not big variations. The only way to know what is in the water coming out of your tap is by looking at the municipal water report for your neighborhood in a town or urban area. The city I live in has reports for twenty or so different zones and they are all different. Also, the reports are based on several samples that change from day to day and are averaged. The water out of your tap is not the same every time. Ever poured yourself a glass of water from the tap and it tastes better or like crap compared to what you typically get? The PPM's are different than they usually are. If you have a well, you can get your water tested by the county, the cooperative extension service. etc.

Things become increasingly complicated from here… pH and PPM are separate measurements of different things. However, some of the things other than hydrogen and oxygen in your water or water/ nutrient mix are really good at taking the hydrogen that is not attached to oxygen to make water and making that hydrogen a part of itself. Since pH is the measure of hydrogen that is not attached to anything in your water or water nutrient mix, the things you add to the water can change the pH. The same is true of just plain well or tap water. What is in the water changes the pH of the water because some of those things are pulling hydrogen not attached to anything They make the formerly free and separate hydrogen part of them. This changes the pH. You are measuring two separate things, but those two separate things affect each other….

The other thing that meters read is EC. That is the abbreviation for electrical conductivity. Different things conduct electricity differently. You cannot make a wire for a lamp in your house out of string. Copper is a great electrical conductor, and you can make wire for a lamp out of it. The EC gives you clues about what is in your water or water/nutrient mix, but it does not tell you exactly what is in your mix any more than pH or PPM.

Combined, pH, PPM, EC, and the analysis of the nutrients you feed your plant can give you a lot of information about what is in the mix, but they don’t tell you exactly.

I am not a botanist, but I know quite a bit about human metabolism. Many of the principals of human metabolism and plant metabolism are the same, but there are significant differences, too. In both cases, for example, magnesium is needed every time ATP is added or moved around to a different position in a molecule. That is not important to know - just an example. Since I started growing cannabis I’ve become more interested in plant metabolism and I have enough background in biochemical mechanisms to increase my knowledge of plant metabolism quicker than most folks new to the subject.

It is quite complicated! Nobody understands all the metabolic intricacies entirely, but we learn more all the time. Cannabis metabolism is difficult to study because of the current prohibition against this wonderful and beneficial plant.

In the last two years LED lighting has taken off. It is a big trend. The other thing that, in my opinion, is going to explode as a trend are complete soils tailored to growing the plant like Doc’s kit, supersoil, etc. The reason is that many of the bacteria in the soil help regulate pH, nutrient availability, etc. Those bacteria (and fungi, too,) break down organic matter and turn it into plant food. The trend is feeding the bacteria instead of the plant. They do the work so you don’t have to – sort of like the scrubbing bubbles in a popular basin, tub and tile cleaner.

More and more companies are going to devote research money to helping soil growers make these soils. In the same way that the market for HPS and MH lighting is being eroded by increasingly effective and energy efficient LED lights, soil amending is going to erode the market for the huge array of liquid nutrient kits on the market. The days of trying to decide how much of this bottle and that bottle to add to the water we feed our plants are numbered. So are the days of scrutinizing our plants for problems and trying to decide what we need to do to fix the issue. The stress level goes WAY down with a nice soil medium.

Before dropping cash on more watts of light, soil growers are increasingly seeing the value of spending money on complete bioactive growing mediums. The gap between yield and quality between soil and a well maintained hydro system is closing quickly, largely due to the rapidly expanding experimentation with complete soils geared towards growing our favorite plant: growing mediums that take the guesswork out of how much to feed and when, and trying to diagnose deficiencies, toxicities, and lockouts.

Comments

I second that time spent to break this down. It will be very valuable as I progress with my AG grow.

Interesting note I found my distilled water read 000 PPM, tap was at 115-120 and when I added my nute's to my distilled water it shot up passed 999 with the X 10 flashing on my TDS-4.

Now I know the reason for this.

Thanks again.

Renegade69
 
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deny4444;bt7964 said:
hy does enybody have an ppm watering chart for aeroponics sistem.

Deny,

Canna's explaination best explains the process. Your not going to find a chart for PPM simply because you can't measure the amount of each in the water only that there is something in the water.

Play with your PPM meter (I hope you have a digital one). Measure distilled, tap and whichever one you use after the nutes are added. Get use to seeing the figures. That will at least tell you that the nutrients are present. There is even someone here that measured apple juice...lol. Go figure. But what he did do was learn his meter and what to expect when testing the water before, during and after nutrients were introduced.

Then simply maintain the correct PH levels and you should be ok.

PH for hydro should be in the range of 5.5-6.1. With optimum at 5.8. I have since adjusted my PH on the low side and let it creep up to about 5.8 or 5.9 before adding some PH adjusted water (2.4) as the water evaporates. Some call it put back water. I'll adjust it back down to 5.5ish...lol. Then let it creep up again.

My current grow is on a weekly res change out the next time I use the AG I'll change out the res every week and half. This gives the plant a chance to obsorb as much of everything as possible. And this grow is only 1 plant. Things change as you add more plants so the learning curve changes again.

You can also measure the PPM as you put back water to see if the plant is feeding. Watch for a drastic decline and correct as needed. Drastic is bad gradule is good as it means the plant is feeding.

As easy as it is to for the plant to grow it only becomes difficult when you interject science.

Hope this helps....

Renegade
 
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Renegade69 thanks for your help

so this is what ive found for the charts hope its correct

Recommended PPM, EC and pH Values for Various Feeding Programs

Vegetative for Hydroponics
Growth Stage 0.5 Conversion (ppm) 0.7 Conversion (ppm) EC ( µ) pH
Clones/Seedlings 220-350 300-500 430-700 5.5-6.2
Week 1-2 400-550 600-800 850-1100 5.5-6.2
Week 3-4 550-700 800-1000 1100-1450 5.5-6.2

Flowering for Hydroponics
Week 1-2 700-850 1000-1200 1450-1700 5.5-6.2
Week 3-4 700-1000 1000-1400 1450-2000 5.5-6.2
Week 5-6 850-1000 1200-1400 1700-2000 5.5-6.2
Week 7-8 350-700 500-1000 700-1450 5.5-6.2


Vegetative for Soil
Growth Stage 0.5 Conversion (ppm) 0.7 Conversion (ppm) EC ( µS) pH
Clones/Seedlings 220-350 300-500 430-700 6.2-6.8
Week 1-2 400-550 600-800 850-1100 6.8-6.2
Week 3-4 550-700 800-1000 1100-1450 6.2-6.8


Flowering for Soil
Week 1-2 700-850 1000-1200 1450-1700 6.2-6.8
Week 3-4 700-1000 1000-1400 1450-2000 6.2-6.8
Week 5-6 850-1000 1200-1400 1700-2000 6.2-6.8
Week 7-8 350-700 500-1000 700-1450 6.2-6.8
Please note that most soil growers only feed every second watering to avoid salt buildup.
 
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deny4444;bt7968 said:
Renegade69 thanks for your help

so this is what ive found for the charts hope its correct

Recommended PPM, EC and pH Values for Various Feeding Programs

Vegetative for Hydroponics
Growth Stage 0.5 Conversion (ppm) 0.7 Conversion (ppm) EC ( µ) pH
Clones/Seedlings 220-350 300-500 430-700 5.5-6.2
Week 1-2 400-550 600-800 850-1100 5.5-6.2
Week 3-4 550-700 800-1000 1100-1450 5.5-6.2

Flowering for Hydroponics
Week 1-2 700-850 1000-1200 1450-1700 5.5-6.2
Week 3-4 700-1000 1000-1400 1450-2000 5.5-6.2
Week 5-6 850-1000 1200-1400 1700-2000 5.5-6.2
Week 7-8 350-700 500-1000 700-1450 5.5-6.2


Vegetative for Soil
Growth Stage 0.5 Conversion (ppm) 0.7 Conversion (ppm) EC ( µS) pH
Clones/Seedlings 220-350 300-500 430-700 6.2-6.8
Week 1-2 400-550 600-800 850-1100 6.8-6.2
Week 3-4 550-700 800-1000 1100-1450 6.2-6.8


Flowering for Soil
Week 1-2 700-850 1000-1200 1450-1700 6.2-6.8
Week 3-4 700-1000 1000-1400 1450-2000 6.2-6.8
Week 5-6 850-1000 1200-1400 1700-2000 6.2-6.8
Week 7-8 350-700 500-1000 700-1450 6.2-6.8
Please note that most soil growers only feed every second watering to avoid salt buildup.

Denny,

I like the chart but based on what I've seen thus far with my grow there is no way I can adjust my PPM down below 1K. I've seen no signs of over feeding and the plant has been very healthy thru the whole grow...so far...lol.

This is my reasoning...
First the AG only has a 1 gallon reservoir.

Then and what's important to me is that I'm using GH's FloraSeries Performance Pack. Their schedule is based on amounts per gallon.

Going by their recommended feeding schedule for hydro.

Week one seedling is/was the only week at 400-600 PPM.

The rest of the weeks are as follows:

1000-1200 for Week 2
1200-1400 for Week 3
1100-1300 for Weeks 4-8
1200-1400 for Weeks 9-10
1100-1300 for Week 11
0-200 for Week 12

And I'm keeping my PH at 5.5. Let it creep up to about 5.8 or 5.9, then adjust back down to 5.5...I think I explained that earlier somewhere.

Someone way more smarter then me has it all figured out so I just go with those recommendations.

Again, I've not experienced any ill effects from my plant. I did have lamp burn initially and nutrient deficiency but that was early on before I started monitoring my PH. And the deficiency issues came on the end of the water change out cycle. So it wasn't really an issue.

So for me it's PH over PPM since PH (and not acting alone but combined with all of the above) is the delivery of the nutrients and PPM is just a scale of how much nutrients are in the water.

Good luck and good growing....

Renegade
 
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Thanks for the chart Deny4444. Shows me I've been doing it right. :)

And Renegade, I do my DWC almost exactly the same way as you. Except I now use pH perfect nutes and put the pen away. Just use the ppm pen to monitor the nute's level.

Before that with 3 - part nutes I'd drop the pH to around 5.3 and over three days it would rise to 6.2 or so. By then it needed water so top up with RO, check pH and ppm then add small amounts of nutes to bring the ppm back up around the level I wanted, add 5 drops or so of conc. sulfuric acid and she was good to go. It was so regular that I only checked the pH every 3 or 4 top-ups.

It was always my contention that allowing the pH to yo-yo gave all the micro-nutrients a change to be at their best absorption rate. Grew a lot of phat colas so it sure wasn't hurting. :)

L8r
 
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