Isopropyl alcohol - iso - ipa - rubbing alcohol - the scoop

ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL - ISO - IPA - RUBBING ALCOHOL - THE SCOOP
I will be cleaning up the formatting here shortly.

This series of posts gave great insight into why these alcohols are not recommended to be used for Concentrated Cannabis Oil. It is a much debated subject, and we debated it by providing some reliable documented sources of information. Yes, it's much cheaper than the better solvents... and more readily available, but at what cost to you or your loved ones either short term or long term?

There are testimonials from people who use it all over the internet, there are people who say it's okay to use it. But are they truly informed of the dangers, the toxicity and contanimates? Do they really know what the long term effects are of the build ups of toxins and contanimants that U.S. government requires manufacturers to put into it to make it non-consumable? Are they aware of the dangers to Diabetic patients? Even using an alcohol distiller is not a safe option for this in what has been discussed.
Please read all of the posts, and go to the links for a thorough look into this. Make an informed decision before putting this into your body!

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Originally Posted by 94xjjohn
Toxicology[edit]
Isopropyl alcohol and its metabolite, acetone, act as central nervous system (CNS) depressants.[24] Symptoms of isopropyl alcohol poisoning include flushing, headache, dizziness, CNS depression, nausea, vomiting, anesthesia, hypothermia, hypotension, shock, respiratory depression, and coma.[24] Poisoning can occur from ingestion, inhalation, or skin absorption; therefore, well-ventilated areas and protective gloves are recommended.

Around 15 g of isopropyl alcohol can have a toxic effect on a 70 kg human if left untreated.[25] However, it is not nearly as toxic as methanol or ethylene glycol.

Isopropyl alcohol does not cause an anion gap acidosis (in which a lowered blood serum pH causes depletion of bicarbonate anion) unlike ethanol and methanol. Isopropyl alcohol does, however, produce an osmolal gap between the calculated and measured osmolalities of serum, as do the other alcohols.[24]

Overdoses may cause a fruity odor on the breath as a result of its metabolism to acetone, which is further metabolized to produce the nutrients acetate and glucose.[26]

Isopropyl alcohol is oxidized to form acetone by alcohol dehydrogenase in the liver.[24]

The biological half-life of isopropyl alcohol in humans is between 2.5 and 8.0 hours.[24]

Isopropyl alcohol is denatured for certain uses, in which case the NFPA 704 rating is changed to 2,3,1.

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wildjim;2777216 said:
Most Isopropyl alcohol has more in it than just alcohol. Distilling it to reclaim the alcohol will leave that as residue in the oil mixture, as will the technique Tim wrote about in the first pages of this thread. What will be left in the oil after it has been decarbed I don't know. I don't remember what is in the isopropyl alcohol and do not know the evaporating temp of that additive. You should read the MSDS of the ISO you will use. That will tell what is added to the ISO. And whether or not it is food grade and what it might do.

WJ

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94xjjohn;2777245 said:
What if we run the iso through the still first.....THEN use it as a solvent?

Either it or 151 Anything distilled at 175 deg F should come out stronger and purer, no? Unless the contaminant vaporizes lower/at the same temp as the alcohol. Damn.

I need one of those hydrometers.

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94xjjohn;2777458 said:
Here's what I found:

Purify Alcohol or Denatured Ethanol Using Distillation

This also tells how to test purity through weight.

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wildjim;2777503 said:
That is a fantastic article Johnny Boy. No telling what is added to different alcohols to make them "undrinkable". I read that mash distillers throw away a certain amount that is converted to methanol during the distilling process. I don't remember if it is in the beginning or near the end of distilling. I also know that when using the MegaHome style distiller, you should stop the distillation at 80% of the amount of the starting alcohol so the temp of the liquid mix doesn't raise to 212F to start distilling the water left over in the mix. When distilling the alcohol, the temp stays relatively close to the boiling temp of alcohol, 175F. The article says about the same thing. Fortunately distilling the water takes longer than alcohol and we can stop it quickly enough if we pay attention to the 80% mark.

Gosh I love this place. And the brothers and sisters here are the most wonderful people ever.
Here is a hug for everyone.

WJ

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94xjjohn;2777580 said:
I find nothing but contrasting info.

After the toxicology stuff re-posted a page or two ago, it goes on to say something like......

'Iso is used widely in the pharmacological industry because of its low incidence of toxic residue.'

Reconcile that with the ever-present :

Never ever, ever, ever make CCO with isopropyl alcohol!!! It's made toxic on purpose to prevent consumption.
Our bodies metabolize it into Acetone. It's impossible to remove 100% of any solvent from CCO.
How much Acetone in YOUR liver is acceptable?

These are the two camps.

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Dennise;2777597 said:
I can only speak as a type one diabetic and no amount would be acceptable IMO...

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Cannafan;2777866 said:
I thank everyone as well. I know this has been tossed around many times in the past, but the distilling gave some newer thoughts, hopes, and questions on this. My mind is made up now. Oil done with the Everclear for internal, and the same for topicals. They are absorbed into the skin.

John, you saved me some time. I was concerned after reading the "notes about purity" in the end of that article.

Notes About Purity

Distilling denatured alcohol will remove enough impurities for may lab applications. Further purification steps could include passing the alcohol over activated carbon. This would be especially helpful if the point of the distillation is to obtain drinkable ethanol. Be very careful distilling ethanol to drink using denatured alcohol as a source. If the denaturing agent was simply an additive intended to make the alcohol bitter, this purification might be fine, but if toxic substances were added to the alcohol, a lesser degree of contamination may remain in the distilled product. This is especially likely if the contaminant had a boiling point close to that of the ethanol. You can reduce contamination by discarding the first bit of ethanol that is collected and the last portion. It also helps to tightly control the temperature of the distillation. Just be aware: distilled alcohol is not suddenly pure! Even commercially produced ethanol still contains traces of other chemicals.

Had planned a further reading today using some better keywords.

My oil would be for long term permanent use, I want to be sure it is as pure as I can make it.
Pay attention to later posts on what this may do to someone who is diabetic. Could it affect other diseases in this manner as well?

I'm going to bookmark this page, this question will certainly come up again...and again.

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Cannafan;2777923 said:
Dennise makes a good point on the Diabetes patients in regards to acetone. The liver naturally handles some amounts of Acetone that is contained in Ketones on a regular basis, to a point.
Here's some reading if you want further information.

From healthline.com:
Every day, the body breaks down fats into organic molecules called ketones. Ketones contain acetone and travel through the bloodstream until your liver metabolizes them. Acetone poisoning can occur when there’s an abnormally high amount of ketones. This is a condition known as “ketoacidosis.”

Metabolic diseases, such as type 1 and type 2 diabetes, can result in ketoacidosis if glucose levels aren’t properly managed. In cases of prolonged starvation, the body’s carbohydrate stores are depleted and the body begins to break down its stored fats into ketones. The liver cannot process such high levels of ketones, and blood ketone levels grow dangerously high.

Here is a Toxicological report on Acetone from the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services.

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp21.pdf

Pay particular attention to item 1.5, in regards to diabetics.

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Dennise;2778045 said:
Does anyone notice the word keytone in all of that.... If you toxify yourself with this you can cause a condition called ketoacidosis... It causes your body to be more acidic than it should be... The normal pH of the body is 7.4 and a very minimal deviation from that will and can cause death... It is much more prevalent in type 1 Diabetics and I personally have been in DKA more than once... It's a trip to ICU and I can assure you there is no fun involved... The government did do this on purpose and I personally would rather try and improve the proof of my solvent vs using one that I have any question that might be harmful... That just simply defeats the purpose of all of this.... I also want to say if you choose to use this that is your business but please be careful what you post up here for others to read.... You are being told this can be very dangerous and if you choose to ignore this warning so be it... But please post your comment responsibly.....

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panacea;2778115 said:
CDC - Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health Concentrations (IDLH): Isopropyl alcohol - NIOSH Publications and Products has some interesting info on the human trials they did with individuals consuming Isopropyl.

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Cannafan;2778141 said:
Reading that now Panacea.

Here's some more:

ISO is listed on the Right to Know Hazardous Substance List, because it is cited by OSHA, ACGIH, DOT, NIOSH, DEP, IARC, NFPA, and EPA. It is on the Special Health Hazard Substance List.

Helluva list there.....

And here's some more reading:

https://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1076.pdf

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Quote Originally Posted by SweetSue
Thank you for this. I'm feeling more confident about it. It's widely used and obviously produces curative oil - your testimony covers that quite nicely. Properly purged oil shouldn't be a concern for problematic residue levels.
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94xjjohn;2778155 said:
Yes, it is! Distilling iso may well concentrate the toxins by boiling away the 'clean' alcohol.

We can try distilling the iso FIRST and then using the 'cleaner' stuff, but the toxins may well distill with the alcohol.

Distill something 151 proof and edible. Problem solved.

I'll have a hydrometer on monday, so I'll see what proof we can easily take 151 proof to.

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wildjim;2778262 said:
Being a diabetic myself, I wouldn't make oil with ISO or any other non-food chemical. And diabetes is the least of my problems. Some might think that if it is used for a short period of time, it might be ok. If someone is fighting cancer or HCV or HIV with the oil, stressing the liver and kidneys, as acetone will do, can be more dangerous than one might think. It can be deadly to an already compromised liver and kidneys. If any caregiver is using isopropyl alcohol or whatever dangerous chemical to make oil for an uninformed patient, please make sure to give the patient all the information about the negative effects of ingesting isopropyl alcohol, the chemicals added to make it undrinkable or it's byproducts. As a patient, I want to know about any danger in any of the medicine I take. I want to be the one who decides what they take. FDA approved or not. And there are many new "approved" pharmaceuticals that I have refused for their "possible" side effects. I want to know if it will kill my boner or give me Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma. I need to know as much as I can to make an informed decision about what I take. And that includes pesticides and fungicides that might have been used during growth to harvest of the plant.

That's just how I feel. That's why I grow my own medicine. I know what's in it. IMHO naturally.

WJ

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Radogast;2777629 said:
BEWARE: This is a rant.

They call it "denatured" alcohol, but it is really "poisoned" alcohol which was deliberately made toxic by the US government in the alcohol prohibition era. For some insane reason, this is still done and still a legal requirement. Recently, some denatured alcohol is no longer fatal, just very distasteful, but I find the whole idea of selling poisoned alcohol morally corrupt. If I put out poison for my neighbor's dog, it would be a crime. If my neighbor ate the poison, it would be a felony. But when the government ... anyway.

Government mandated poisoned alcohol in pharmacies strikes me as a crime against humanity.

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94xjjohn;2777655 said:
Is this right?:

Denatured alcohol is poisoned "natural" (ethyl) alcohol. We can probably distill purer, if we have to.

Isopropyl alcohol is toxic (poisonous) from the get go. Doesn't sound good, yet.

Rubbing alcohol can be either. Yep.

And here's one your grandma didn't tell you....rubbing alcohol is toxic to human skin. Cannafanny...not for topicals.

Day two of alcohol 101 starts soon.

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SweetSue;2777726 said:
Where's the information about the supposed toxicity of 99% ISO coming from? Seriously guys, I want to see the data. What I'm uncovering is a long, long list of people who have no hesitation in using this grade of ISO. If you drink or ingest 8 ounces of it, yes, it's toxic, but the reality of the situation is that the process of purging the solvent from the oil should make this a non issue.

It's all well and good to jump on this bandwagon when you have a better alternative available, but in a significant number of areas of the world this is the best possible option available, and here we are telling those people it's absolutely off the table.

Please, someone show me or point me to the data that backs up these claims of toxicity, because I've spent a better part of my day searching for it and all I'm finding is people being cured by CCO processed with this solvent, with no documentation of anything negative. One of our own members has bravely stepped into this fray to share his own success using ISO. Something doesn't feel right to me here.

We also have the new factor of the distillers to consider. If it's possible to purify this solvent and make it safe to use then we have the potential to make life a brighter place for those for whom ISO is their only decent option. I'm resistant to the scare tactics. Show me the proof.

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Cannafan;2777883 said:
Sue,
Please keep in mind this is just MY opinion in regards to how I feel about using this in my own case, based on what has been provided and what I've read the last couple of days.

The part that I'm struggling with the most here is what cannot be purged from the oil or during the distilling process. The purposeful addition of contaminants/poison (yes, Radogast was absolutely correct on that) that might not boil out of the process, as it states below "hard to separate toxic substances" scares me. This suggests to me they added it in such a way that the home user or distiller cannot remove it with standard methods.

I, personally, don't want to take a chance. I know there are people who use it, and testimonies of that, but the more I see and read...the more I don't feel I can do this without worrying what long term effect it's going to have on me or someone I love, especially for the diabetics out there.

I've suffered many long term effects from pharma medications due to the unavailability of proper information to the public, as well as the big pharma only listing the side effects they deemed worth mentioning or was required by law. I have red flags here waving at me wildly, which I didn't have on the meds.

I'm trying to fix things in my body, not add more issues that may show up later. Sure, it may cure what I'm using it for right now, but at what expense of something new developing later due to the slow build up of toxins and contaminants? I have found nothing that can answer that with absolutes that it won't happen, if the documentation is out there... someone please show it to us.

I've gone back and forth like a ping pong ball with this the last couple of days, as you well know, but in the end.... It is just too questionable, so I'm going to stay on the side of caution and safety for me and my loved ones.
I'm not going to attempt to tell anyone else this is absolutely a "Don't do", they need to read up and do their due diligence to make their own decisions.

Thanks John.

If we're doing Alcohol 101, might as well start with what the basic differences are in Alcohol. LOL

What is the difference between alcohol, Ethanol, denatured alcohol, rubbing alcohol, methanol and isopropyl alcohol?

Good question – What is the difference between alcohol, Ethanol, denatured alcohol, rubbing alcohol, methanol and isopropyl alcohol? | BrainStuff

And a Denatured Alcohol information sheet from a chemical company stating toxicity:

CAMEO Chemicals | NOAA

One line from the above link:

General Description
A clear colorless liquid with a characteristic odor. Consists of ethanol deliberately rendered toxic by the addition of hard-to-separate toxic substances. Less dense than water. Vapors heavier than air. Used as a fuel, solvent, antifreeze, and to make other chemicals.

Another little Tidbit I found in regards to using it in bath items:

By Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.

Updated December 04, 2014.
I've been asked that question often, so here's the answer: Denatured alcohol is ethanol (ethyl alcohol) that has been made unfit for human consumption by adding another chemical to it. Denaturing refers to removing a property from the alcohol (being able to drink it), not to chemically altering or decomposing it.
There are hundreds of ways ethanol is denatured. Denatured alcohol that is intended for use as a fuel or solvent typically contains 5% or more methanol.

Methanol is flammable and has a boiling point close to that of ethanol. Denatured alcohol for use in cosmetics often contains water and a bittering agent (Bitrex or Aversion which are denatonium benzoate or denatonium saccharide), but other chemicals are sometimes used. Other common additives include (but are not limited to) isopropanol, methyl ethyl Methanol is absorbed across the skin and is highly toxic, so when I recommend people not use denatured alcohol for making perfume or bath products, my reason is that you usually don't know what has been added to the ethanol. ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, pyridine, benzene, diethyl phthalate, and naphtha.

Right now everything I'm doing is with the oil made with Everclear.

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94xjjohn;2778099 said:
SweetSue, be as resistant as you like, the proof you need is everywhere.

They poison it on purpose...what the hell proof do you need beyond that???????????????????????????????

Bottom line...if you have cancer or another life threatening illness, and it's ALL you have...use it. It obviously won't kill you right away. "People use it all the time." Think thalidomide. People used it regularly until they found out about how dangerous it was.
If you can't find how toxic it is...you're not trying very hard.

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circuit;2778325 said:
The quest for a safe solvent to extract cannabis oil has led to many discussions in forums like this. Typically they end with disagreement and conflict, sometimes referred to as "solvent wars". My research has led me to the conclusion that there is no safe way to perform this type of extraction with iso, at least the 'adulterated' type (the only kind) available in the US. There are people who claim to be able to remove the toxic chemicals, (purging) but I have never seen that process explained in a way that made sense regarding iso. And no, I cannot accept that the benefits of consuming the oil outweigh the toxicity of oil made with iso, that is plain crazy, especially when talking about giving it to a sick person. Please use caution around this stuff. There are people blasting butane to make edible oil, another bad idea for the at home maker, because a lot of the 'tane remains, that can be removed by using an expensive heated vacuum oven, but why? Why would anyone want to use butane to extract an edible oil? The whole plant extract is where the most curative compounds are, so a safe removal and extraction of those compounds is the best way to make edible cannabis oil.

This all seems obvious to me, but there are other opinions for sure. If you think that you can make a safe extraction by using toxic solvents, well good for you, but please do not give it to anyone else. I am not an expert or a chemist, but I have a fair amount of common sense. Rule #1 when playing with this stuff is to do no harm.

I have seen many posts from people who complain that cannabis oil made them vomit and feel sick. That would be expected if you managed to get any iso into your body, the additive is specifically put in it to do that. Several of those people mentioned that iso was used to make the oil. Before jumping on with your proof positive that it is safe, please take a step back and look at the discussion. Our judgement can be clouded by habit and the drive to make a living, which is the type reactions that I keep seeing when this gets brought up, people who have been using iso for years, ethanol isn't available... To me these are BS excuses, brought up by people either too lazy to figure out a better way or people who are so in love with their profits, that they lose sight. If you would like to defend using toxic solvents by engaging in an online argument, please start up a new thread and go for it.

Organic alcohol is available pretty much everywhere, you have it shipped.

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Dennise;2778346 said:
Without question and without any further mention needed... You are absolutely correct in this matter... I have a degree in nursing and health sciences and the very first thing we are taught... is do no harm.... and literally all we are talking about here is a bit more time to allow the water at the end of the process to cook off... Time is in no way toxic and I have plenty of time to allow for a safe end product.... Thank you very much for your post.......

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SweetSue;2778332 said:
I live in a state that restricts the shipping of alcohol into the state, so shipping is not an option circuit. I'm looking into whether anything is added to the 99% ISO in the US. This is not denatured alcohol. I'm waiting on a call back from a biochemist and my personal pharmacist. At this point what I've found is that 99% is sold from behind the counter and has no additives. I'm still searching for trustworthy confirmation on this though.

Again, I have no desire to introduce toxicity into my meds or meds meant for anyone else.

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Cannafan;2778367 said:
Hi Sue,
I just read that there are additives by the U.S.

Rubbing Alcohol in the US

In the United States, rubbing alcohol made using ethanol must conform to Formula 23-H, which specifies it consists of 100 parts by volume of ethyl alcohol, 8 parts by volume of acetone and 1.5 parts by volume of methyl isobutyl ketone (MSDS sheet). The remainder of the composition includes water and denaturants and may include colorants and perfume oils.

Rubbing alcohol made using isopropanol is regulated to contains at least 355 mg of sucrose octaacetate (MSDS sheet) and 1.40 mg of denatonium benzoate per 100 ml volume. Isopropyl rubbing alcohol also contains water, stabilizer and may contain colorants.

Rubbing Alcohol Toxicity

Thus, all rubbing alcohol manufactured in the US is toxic to ingest, inhale or apply to your skin. In fact, if you read the product label, you'll see there is a warning against most of the common uses of rubbing alcohol.

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circuit;2778373 said:
I apologize if my post comes across as rude, that is not my intention. As a survivor of several solvent wars, the topic has been beaten to a pulp and, in my mind, is resolved with the conclusion that for people who make the oil at home, ethanol, Everclear, organic alcohol, food grade alcohol, is the best, safest and most practical solvent. If you are in the cannabis oil business to make a profit, there are better ways to go about this, especially if you don't mind a little poison in your oil. If this symbol is on your solvent, it is the wrong one to use for edible oil.

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wildjim;2778380 said:
When we consider distilling, there are very important factors to consider. One, is the boiling point of all of the added chemicals. If the boiling point of those chemicals is never reached during distilling, the chemicals will be left in the bottom of the distiller with the oil mixture waiting to evaporate what is left of the alcohol and water. That doesn't mean the bad stuff will evaporate along with the alcohol. It will be in the CCO and will also be concentrated when the alcohol is removed by the distillation. Anyone that has used the distiller to distill water knows what is left in the bottom. When the added chemicals are concentrated by distilling and removing their carrier, it must be safe to assume the patient is receiving more than a minimal amount of those adulterants.

WJ

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SweetSue;2778387 said:
I've just finished my conversation with the friendly biochemist who cautioned me against using the ISO in any form. There are particulates left in the product that are negligible unless you're ingesting. He's actually processed a fair amount of CCO himself and done experimentation with different solvent grades. He assures me that quality plant material processed with Everclear 151 will give me a high-quality oil that is just slightly behind what I should expect with pure alcohol.

Thank you for your patience in this discussion. There won't be any more resistance on my part.

As an aside, he shared that he'd tried distilling lower proof alcohol to gain the advantage of higher ethanol content but was discouraged by the amount of loss in the process. It'll be interesting to see what results Mighty Mouse gets.

Everclear 151 it is. My challenge becomes one of increasing trichome production as much as possible. I think I'm up to that challenge.

Thanks guys.

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Cannafan;2778407 said:
I was just about to type out the whole warning label on my bottle of Isopropyl. (no need for it now, I think everyone's pretty clear on it) It's kind of scary, to say the least. Warning labels on google images were many to do with application to animals, and warning of ingesting and not using on deep open wounds...etc. etc.
Poor animals, if it isn't good for us...it certainly isn't good for them.

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Originally Posted by supergroomer View Post
What if the boiling point of the "additive" is lower then alcohol? It will evaporate first into the solvent. I am not sure?

Dennise;2778419 said:
Possibly so Super but there is no possible way of knowing that info... Again all we are talking here is a matter of a little bit extra time in the oven... Is the health of your wife or yourself worth taking even the most minute chance of introducing a toxin to your system... John is right? How much is too much for your liver, pancreas, kidneys..... and if your treating a patient that is already compromised you could most certainly do more harm than good.... It really just should be a non-issue... It is not safe and we go to such extreme to make sure we use the best flowers to make the best meds so why muck it up at the very end to save a little time.... I simply don't see an upside... Be safe.. be responsible and make your meds clean as possible... otherwise it just defeats the whole purpose.....

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And finally, just to lighten things up a bit:

cajuncelt;2778432 said:
I see our old friend, the ISO alcohol topic, is back.
It pops up regularly, for good reason, about every 18 months.
I'll post the science... might help some decide.

It was raining hard the day ISO alcohol was invented, so the Creator could not add any rays of sunshine. Unlike ethanol, which was created the same day that smiles were made.
So, ISO is missing rainbows & ethanol has smiles put in it.
See how easy that was? And ppl say we just make this stuff up....

Happy Sunday!

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